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Post by wagnerr on Mar 21, 2006 13:47:05 GMT -5
OK, about "why nice guys finish last", it is important to lay out a few "founding principles". If the principles I'm about to lay out are false, then my entire philosophy is false. Of course, founding principles always speak in generalities. Rule #1: Women and men are equal in value and in rights but different in biology and in function. The fact that women and men are different biologically shows at face value that each is more suited to specific expressions than the other. There is quite a bit of false science out there trying to show that men and women are somehow interchangeable, that there is "gender equality", and that each is equally suited to perform any task in a monogamous relationship. This idea of gender equality in function is false, and is the primary reason why most marriages fail in our society today. Of course, this also applies to the question of "why nice guys finish last", but the question of courtship can't be addressed until this first premise is established. In a relationship, women and men are best suited to DIFFERENT functions. They are not interchangeable. This does not mean that either the woman or the man is enslaved to perform only certain functions in the relationship, not at all. But it is important to realize that nature dictates a law that in a relationship, each gender is more naturally inclined to exceed at fulfilling certain functions while the other gender is equally inclined to fulfilling very different functions. This is true from first meeting to courtship to marriage to childrearing and beyond. To guys who feel that "nice guys finish last", it might be a good idea to learn a bit about feminism, the feminist movement over the past fifty years, and the difference between which ideas in the feminist movement actually helped women compared and contrasted to those ideas in the feminist movement that actually hurt women. You might not think that your date is effected by feminism, but she is. It's your job to understand HOW your girl has been effected by feministic ideas. The only way you will be able to do that is to understand the feminist movement yourself better than she understands it herself. Once you do that, you will have access directly into the thought processes that define the most important decisions that she makes. Always remember that you don't learn more about feminism than she herself knows so that you can trick her or control her, but only so that you can protect yourself in the coursthip stage and so that you can properly assess whether or not the girl who catches your eye really deserves your heart. And also so that if you decide that she is in fact the girl for you, you can love her the way she needs to be loved. Guys who feel disadvantaged by your dating lives, please understand my point to you: it is NOT your date's job to explain these things to you. It is YOUR job to understand these dynamics even better than she does, even before your first date with her (and before your first date with any other woman, for that matter). I can understand your reasoning here. I am involved with setting up a new Women's Studies Minor program at my school for the last year or so, and i have observed some prominent feminist academics in action. Feminism, in my opinion, arose from a lack of social acceptance of female equity in western society. Women may have gained the right to vote in 1920, in US, but statistically few of them exercised that right for the next thirty or so years. This does not mean they didn't have the right; they just didn't exercise it. That's not an insult, as not all men vote in elections either. Anyway, feminism presented a challenge to women in western society. It asked them to step up to situations and assist in solving them. More and more women every year are now going to colleges, and getting professional degrees, and becoming involved with business, politics and government, and especially medicine and technology. Thing is, all these functions are what i like to call "gender-neutral" positions. Your gender does not impact your performance in any way at these types of jobs, only your education and training does. Feminism also presented interpersonal relationship influences on women as well, challenging them to take some more control in a relationship. In particular, feminisim came down hard on physical abuse. This produced more female lawyers than anything. Women who cared about stopping domestic violence were more inclined to become lawyers and judges. So basically, feminism empowered women not by making them equal, but by giving the opportunity to choose in various situations. Feminists helped women to realize that they had the ability to make decisions, and could choose other options available to them. Now, on interelationship interaction, for example, feminism was not as successful. There was the stereotype that all radical feminists were gay, or 'man-haters.' And some undoubtedly were. But most were, and are, not. Even today. Because there is still the biological influence on women and men to push them into specific roles in relationships. Because men cannot bear children, women do it. So, while the woman is pregnant, it falls onto the man to provide support and protection for her, and the indeed the whole family unit. I work in a hardware store, for example. This is a predominantly male-employee environment. However, at our Special Service Desk, it is women who predominantly run it, because they are better able to multy task and address customers' concerns and wants. So essentially, men lift things and women take care of things. Feminism was not sucessful at eliminating these biolgoical and sociological differences between the two genders. And now i would argue that it no longer seeks to. The feminist academics i work around and help out are certainly not radical men haters. They work only to ensure that women become responsible and capable, and treated as such in our society.
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Post by shyiscool on Mar 22, 2006 14:13:32 GMT -5
Russ: Bravo!
I suspect many "Nice guys" might not have ever thought about these things, and might not have any clue at all about what is driving the thoughts and actions of their dates or their girlfriends or their fiancees.
Now, to guys who would label themselves as "Nice guys who finish last", it doesn't matter whether or not you are an expert in modern feminism at the moment. In past posts, I have tried to suggest an introduction and in more recent posts, Russ has given a better introduction than I could have ever given.
What you need to realize is that your relationships with your dates and girlfriends and fiancees are not as arbitrary as you once thought, and there are in fact underlying principles that control your woman even if she is unaware about how the things move her to think and act. The good news for you is that if you just spend a little bit of time understanding what is really happening, you will never again be taken by surprise in these kinds of things. In fact, you will come to predict the possibilities in advance, and along with that knowledge, you will naturally become more and more confident in each and every romantic encounter that you decide to enjoy.
In the past, you might have ended up with the short end of the stick, even though you had performed like such a perfect gentleman. You showed up a bit early, you said all the right 'nice' things on the phone, you brought flowers or some other gift of submission, you were sensitive to her stated desires before, during and after your dates....but....after all, you noticed that she mocked you and had contempt for you, and she disrespected you despite your doing "all the right things". All of a sudden (it seems), your phone calls weren't returned as quickly, and even when you were able to finally have a voice conversation on the phone, her tone of appreciation and respect was all gone...and she seemed to be a completely different girl than the one you met at first.
What you should realize is that up to now you might have been mystified by this kind of 'soft rejection', and you felt hurt and a bit bewildered at the same time....because you had done "all the right things"! But there are some men who understand this kind of thing COMPLETELY. What I am saying is that no matter how many times this kind of disrespect happened to you, you should no longer be discouraged that you didn't understand it; instead, you should rejoice that there are other men who understand it completely, and you should rejoice that those men are happy to share their insights with you freely and without any hope of reciprocation by you to them.
If you end up agreeing with my theories, does that mean you'll end up as some kind of 'chick magnet'? Of course not! What it means is that you will understand these kinds of things BEFORE they happen, and you won't again be taken for a fool by a woman. What you do with the knowledge is really up to you.
Or, put another way, if you continue on as a "nice guy who finishes last" even after you understand the truth of what is going on underneath, you won't end up posting your woes on internet forums anymore. You'll understand exactly why it happened, and it is really up to you to change enough to take control of the situation for your own benefit and for the benefit of the lady you hope to court.
Of course, there are specific techniques about what to do in your romantic encounters - once you understand the underlying principles...but those specific techniques aren't really important at this point.
What's the point so far?
1. Men and women are BIOLOGICALLY different, no matter what society says.
2. To whatever extent men and women do not understand their natural, biological roles in a romantic relationship, that relationship will begin to fail.
3. Men are weaker than women at understanding the dynamics of what is happening, and that is why men need special help to regain confidence in their proper role in their relationships with the fairer gender.
4. Healthy women want NICE men who are emotionally INDEPENDENT. Unhealthy women, without even understanding what they do, seek men who are emotionally insecure and emotionally DEPENDENT. Unhealthy women are attracted to ABUSIVE men who seem at first to be WHOLESOME, FLEXIBLE and NURTURING. Healthy women desire men who are EMOTIONALLY SECURE and EMOTIONALLY INDEPENDENT, and NICE and CONSIDERATE to others. On this point, men who believe that "nice guys finish last" should begin to see a glimmer of hope, and they should begin to realize that their frustration has nothing to do with their own ability to relate to women, but has everything to do with their own misunderstanding of what is really going on underneath the courtship experience.
5. Success or failure in romance has NOTHING to do with whether you are "Nice" or "Not Nice". Success or failure in romance has everything to do with whether you understand the natural laws that govern romantic relationships, and whether you are able to confidently assume your own role according to your own gender and to what those laws say about how your gender should act in a romantic relationship.
Thanks for listening to me.
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Post by pnoopiepnats on Mar 22, 2006 14:31:12 GMT -5
In the past, you might have ended up with the short end of the stick, even though you had performed like such a perfect gentleman. You showed up a bit early, you said all the right 'nice' things on the phone, you brought flowers or some other gift of submission, you were sensitive to her stated desires before, during and after your dates....but....after all, you noticed that she mocked you and had contempt for you, and she disrespected you despite your doing "all the right things". All of a sudden (it seems), your phone calls weren't returned as quickly, and even when you were able to finally have a voice conversation on the phone, her tone of appreciation and respect was all gone...and she seemed to be a completely different girl than the one you met at first. There is a thing as going overboard with this stuff and that is what the turn off is. It isn't that the guy is polite or calls or give gifts. It is the guy that calls 20 times a day! Or gives you a diamond bracelet on the 2nd date or sends flowers every day or wrote me 100 poems. I expect for him to invest some time and effort into me. That means phone calls, emails, roses would make me swoon, and just little thoughtful things like that. If he doesn't, that means he isn't willing to make the effort for me and doesn't really care that much and I will be gone. Going overboard is bad. Neglecting and failing to nuture the relationship is bad too.
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Post by shyiscool on Mar 22, 2006 14:41:00 GMT -5
In the past, you might have ended up with the short end of the stick, even though you had performed like such a perfect gentleman. You showed up a bit early, you said all the right 'nice' things on the phone, you brought flowers or some other gift of submission, you were sensitive to her stated desires before, during and after your dates....but....after all, you noticed that she mocked you and had contempt for you, and she disrespected you despite your doing "all the right things". All of a sudden (it seems), your phone calls weren't returned as quickly, and even when you were able to finally have a voice conversation on the phone, her tone of appreciation and respect was all gone...and she seemed to be a completely different girl than the one you met at first. There is a thing as going overboard with this stuff and that is what the turn off is. It isn't that the guy is polite or calls or give gifts. It is the guy that calls 20 times a day! Or gives you a diamond bracelet on the 2nd date or sends flowers every day or wrote me 100 poems. I expect for him to invest some time and effort into me. That means phone calls, emails, roses would make me swoon, and just little thoughtful things like that. If he doesn't, that means he isn't willing to make the effort for me and doesn't really care that much and I will be gone. Going overboard is bad. Neglecting and failing to nuture the relationship is bad too. Hi Snot Pnats! Your post gives a perfect example of a "nice guy" who doesn't inspire any confidence at all in the woman who needs to put up with him. Thank you for the example. Also, I fear that some women might think that I am supporting men against women with my theory. Not at all. What is important to realize is that in a romantic relationship, if one person in the relationship doesn't get it, then both parties suffer. It doesn't really matter which person doesn't get it, it only takes one who doesn't get it to foul up a relationship, and more often than not these days, it's both who don't get it. I happen to be a man, so my experience has me addressing the thing to men who want to listen. But after all is said and done, if a man is good like he should be, his woman ends up blessed too. And if a woman is good like she should be, then her man ends up blessed too. I'm a man speaking to men. If any woman reads my commments and then concludes that I am anti-woman, she has missed the point. Women who read what I write and get angry should take a deep breath and wait a few weeks before posting an angry response; after all, they will see that as much as I hope to correct men and show the men what is going on, it is the women too who will end up happier, more fulfilled and at peace in their own relationships. Or, I could put it another way! Are there any women here who really enjoy being in a romantic relationship with a confused, emotionally dependent man who is unsure of how to carry out his role as the man in the relationship? If so, then I had better find a better way of presenting my ideas.
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Post by shyiscool on Mar 22, 2006 15:16:29 GMT -5
Being confident has nothing to do with learning a new thing; it has everything to do with remembering who you already were.
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Post by pnoopiepnats on Mar 22, 2006 15:17:49 GMT -5
Or, I could put it another way! Are there any women here who really enjoy being in a romantic relationship with a confused, emotionally dependent man who is unsure of how to carry out his role as the man in the relationship? What does that mean?
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Post by shyiscool on Mar 22, 2006 15:20:09 GMT -5
"Men.....as soon as you finally arrive at disciplining yourself to never again be curious about what a lady may or may not think about you, you will most likely notice that all of a sudden, the ladies can't arrive at disciplining themselves to think of anyone but you."
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Post by shyiscool on Mar 22, 2006 15:28:52 GMT -5
Or, I could put it another way! Are there any women here who really enjoy being in a romantic relationship with a confused, emotionally dependent man who is unsure of how to carry out his role as the man in the relationship? What does that mean? It means that by nature, human beings are self-confident. It means that from the time they are born, human beings end up being brainwashed to the point where they question their own roles and functions, and so, they become dependent on the thoughts and ideas of others.
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Post by pnoopiepnats on Mar 22, 2006 15:39:05 GMT -5
It means that by nature, human beings are self-confident. It means that from the time they are born, human beings end up being brainwashed to the point where they question their own roles and functions, and so, they become dependent on the thoughts and ideas of others. Both male and female have that problem. Many people never get it back. I don't know about anyone else but I find many of those salesmen types annoying.
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Post by albetross on Mar 22, 2006 17:14:56 GMT -5
Being confident has nothing to do with learning a new thing; it has everything to do with remembering who you already were. Remember who I was? what do you mean by that
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Post by shyiscool on Mar 24, 2006 11:36:33 GMT -5
Being confident has nothing to do with learning a new thing; it has everything to do with remembering who you already were. Remember who I was? what do you mean by that Hi albatross, I just mean that in any normal man, there is a self confident man, but sometimes society has put that man to sleep because of messages that the society gives the man, and he believes the messages even if they aren't true. A man can end up believing things about himself that aren't true. Usually, if a guy is not having success with his dates, and they are walking all over him, it's because he has some false beliefs about himself and about women. So in my way of looking at things, that guy might tell himself "I'm just not a ladies man...it's not in my nature.", when in fact, there's nothing wrong with his nature at all. His manly nature is covered up and supressed to the point where the guy doesn't even realize that it is even there. So, he doesn't really have to become someone new. What he really needs to do is understand the false messages that his society has given him, and then unlearn them. To whatever extent he uncovers the lie, his good man will emerge. So, you see? He just needs to remember who he was (is). That's what I mean by that statement. Snot Pnats made a comment that its both women and men who have that problem, and I think she is right.
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Post by sushiboat on Mar 24, 2006 11:59:53 GMT -5
A tendency toward social fearfulness can be seen in some infants at birth. Jerome Kagan calls it an inhibited temperament. Most inhibited children don't become shy because they learn through positive experiences and encouragement that interacting with people is generally pleasant and rewarding. So, I disagree that confidence is always innate and shyness a product of social programming.
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Post by scottydstno on Mar 26, 2006 18:21:16 GMT -5
It's actually not always true. In my personal opinion, I believe there is a reason for this false "truth" about our society today, and it actually backs up a religious arguement. Some of the nicest and most religious guys I know, have ended up with some of the hottest and sweetest girls (believe it or not, the Bible implys that they will), very happily married, even a lot of the time at early ages ... 18 - 25. My current girlfriend is my first, and I'm 99% sure is the only ... I'll be 19 in may. People have become religious simply by watching how this happened. I will not get into that subject here though. My point is, it depends on the person, more than just physically and emotionally.
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Post by pnoopiepnats on Mar 26, 2006 18:33:06 GMT -5
It's actually not always true. In my personal opinion, I believe there is a reason for this false "truth" about our society today, and it actually backs up a religious arguement. Some of the nicest and most religious guys I know, have ended up with some of the hottest and sweetest girls (believe it or not, the Bible implys that they will), very happily married, even a lot of the time at early ages ... 18 - 25. My current girlfriend is my first, and I'm 99% sure is the only ... I'll be 19 in may. People have become religious simply by watching how this happened. I will not get into that subject here though. My point is, it depends on the person, more than just physically and emotionally. I wasn't aware that "hot" was a Xtian quality? Anyway I am glad you are happy and glad you found someone. I think there is more to life than religion. There are plenty of non religious people who have had long marriages. You are very young and your relationship is obviously new. Same with you 18-25 buds. When y'all reach your silver and golden anniversaries then you have some bragging rights about success. My parents were married for 48 years and neither one of them were religious.
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Post by terrahawk on Mar 29, 2006 22:43:11 GMT -5
The problem is that many guys view the some essential behaviour of being independent and flirting as 'being a jerk'. Things like teasing, not being available all the time, being sexually upfront. It's called being cocky but funny. You have to maintain a challenge or else you come off as needy and no woman likes that in a man unless they have some weird dominatrix fetish.
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