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Post by wagnerr on Nov 14, 2005 13:21:15 GMT -5
in a perfect world where everyone acts for the common good it may work. To me its like heaven on earth and it will be impossible to have that. Is social security considered a socialist policy? im ignorant to that. Social Security is meant for everyone but they don't get the same pay because they base that on what you made your whole life. So no it isn't a socialist policy. I don't think social security was ever meant to be permanent, but now it is virutally impossible to eliminate. |
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Post by wagnerr on Nov 14, 2005 13:28:29 GMT -5
There is hope that Chevez in Venezuela might be on the right road, but there probably a greater chance that he'll turn into another meglomaniac or just get assinated with the help on a particular neighbouring government! If so, whoever kills him should be given a medal. I don't think most people are aware of the destruction that Chavez has wrought on Venezuela, not to mention the tens of thousands of innnocents slain in his wake. In addition, Chavez openly infringes upon Columbia's borders and kills people there too. Again, all this has happened before. Chavez is as socialist as Josef Stalin. He is another run-of-the-mill dictator using the peoples' misery to make him into a hero. |
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Post by Tal on Nov 14, 2005 14:07:58 GMT -5
Socialism may attempt to eliminate those inequities, but we have yet to seen it occur. Seems to me that socialism more than anything has been the dogma of one man's vying for power on the earth, over another prevailing system. Hence, revolution occurs, and not simply civil war. True, but what ideology, religion or dogma hasn't been used by some power-hungry person as an excuse to kill, pillage and suppress. Doesn't mean we should stop trying to implement socialist political systems around the world...its who implements them and how they're implemented that matters.  |
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Post by MrNice on Nov 14, 2005 14:36:02 GMT -5
the system also matters
not just the people
if the people were perfect there wouldn't be a need for a system at all
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Post by wonkothesane on Nov 14, 2005 15:29:32 GMT -5
There is hope that Chevez in Venezuela might be on the right road, but there probably a greater chance that he'll turn into another meglomaniac or just get assinated with the help on a particular neighbouring government! If so, whoever kills him should be given a medal. I don't think most people are aware of the destruction that Chavez has wrought on Venezuela, not to mention the tens of thousands of innnocents slain in his wake. In addition, Chavez openly infringes upon Columbia's borders and kills people there too. Again, all this has happened before. Chavez is as socialist as Josef Stalin. He is another run-of-the-mill dictator using the peoples' misery to make him into a hero. Columbia is just a very bad example for anything to do with government, human rights that goes for the colubian government and the FARC etc..... The Venezulan government would say Columbia started it- that's the problem with countries www.hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=venezu Chavez has not left ten's of thousands slain in his wake-I think Human Rights Watch might have something to say on the matter if he did! Yes he has plenty of other questions to answer, and like any post revolutionary society it is in transition and has alot to sort out but he is hardly in the running for despot of the year- but as I said in agreement with you he will probably, ie 99.99999999% chance, turn out out to be a meglomaniac. Every government without exception is responsible for killing innocents everyday some just more than others. To be honest I hardly know of an example of a truly Democratic State nevermind a Socialist one I don't hold any world leader up as example of anything other then a power hungry fool. But Chavez and his government (democratically elected- just like Hittler! and only as guilty of as much election fraud as the almighty W) is just a very vague example of a sort of socialist state which is a far cry from Stalinist Russia or nowadays North Korea or China's supposed socialist systems. |
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Post by Samantha on Nov 14, 2005 16:18:10 GMT -5
Hee hee Tal, I was kinda teasing you. I was all funned up on beer and exciting football. I thought that might get a response from you ;D I don't even really know what most of you mean by socialism. Politics is, as you might be able to tell, not something I have studied ;D
From what I can tell socialism seems to be a race with no winners and no losers.
So what is socialism? What are socialist policies? How would it be different to now? I'm a free voter, so to speak. Convince me socialism is the way forward. Or not if you don't want to lol.
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Post by Tal on Nov 15, 2005 6:02:32 GMT -5
Hee hee Tal, I was kinda teasing you. I was all funned up on beer and exciting football. I thought that might get a response from you ;D I don't even really know what most of you mean by socialism. Politics is, as you might be able to tell, not something I have studied ;D From what I can tell socialism seems to be a race with no winners and no losers. So what is socialism? What are socialist policies? How would it be different to now? I'm a free voter, so to speak. Convince me socialism is the way forward. Or not if you don't want to lol. haha...well put simply, it's a bit like the Federation in Star Trek, but without the constant fighting and silly uniforms.  Basically people are driven by contributing to society and the common good, not by money and profit. This then fosters values of pacifism, tolerance, generosity, friendliness etc in society, making it a more pleasant place to live.* Convincing enough?  hehe * Of course there's no guarantee it'll work like that or even be possible within the next few hundred years. |
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Post by wagnerr on Nov 15, 2005 16:18:46 GMT -5
If so, whoever kills him should be given a medal. I don't think most people are aware of the destruction that Chavez has wrought on Venezuela, not to mention the tens of thousands of innnocents slain in his wake. In addition, Chavez openly infringes upon Columbia's borders and kills people there too. Again, all this has happened before. Chavez is as socialist as Josef Stalin. He is another run-of-the-mill dictator using the peoples' misery to make him into a hero. Columbia is just a very bad example for anything to do with government, human rights that goes for the colubian government and the FARC etc..... The Venezulan government would say Columbia started it- that's the problem with countries www.hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=venezu Chavez has not left ten's of thousands slain in his wake-I think Human Rights Watch might have something to say on the matter if he did! Yes he has plenty of other questions to answer, and like any post revolutionary society it is in transition and has alot to sort out but he is hardly in the running for despot of the year- but as I said in agreement with you he will probably, ie 99.99999999% chance, turn out out to be a meglomaniac. Every government without exception is responsible for killing innocents everyday some just more than others. To be honest I hardly know of an example of a truly Democratic State nevermind a Socialist one I don't hold any world leader up as example of anything other then a power hungry fool. But Chavez and his government (democratically elected- just like Hittler! and only as guilty of as much election fraud as the almighty W) is just a very vague example of a sort of socialist state which is a far cry from Stalinist Russia or nowadays North Korea or China's supposed socialist systems. I think he is in the running for despot of the year, that's my own personal opinion. Chavez's policies strongly resemble every other despot's actions in their running for political control since the 1920's. True, there is no official count of the people killed or injured in his rise to power. I am only estimating at best. I'm counting the number of political opponents imprisoned after his siezure of power, plus all the others left homeless and starving to death after his socialist policies implemented what, some five years ago? Six?  Also, the Human Rights Watch has been putting pressure on him from the beginning. That's probably the only reason Chavez isn't more cruel than he already is. Of course, i'm only going by firsthand witnesses accounts, that's all; venezuelan emmigres that came to my school after Chavez came around, and their lobbyists that i've spoken to over the last few years that have come to our school to protest Chavez' reign of terror. I'm sure the media has a much different interpretation of him, indeed.  Of course, Chavez may only be in the rooting out phase of his reign. Perhaps he'll step up some real reforms soon, and stop all the needless killing and torture. Just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's accurate. I trust my friends from Venezuela and what they published much more than any internet website. |
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Post by wonkothesane on Nov 19, 2005 11:01:39 GMT -5
I agree that just because something is in any media it is true- but human rights watch have a pretty good record over the years and they have a lot to say about too many countries in our supposed civilised world- even my own. Ireland can be a ridiculously intolerant society sometimes and our police although they would not be the strong arm of a totalitarian regiem have many questions to answer. I have several friend who have been beaten up by them and I've been treathen on several occasions when I was a teenager, not for any political reasons, just because they can. There is a part of this country where a large section of the force have been investigated (not a full judicial investigation- but that's a whole other matter) about planting explovises, harashing one paricular family and falsely changing the head of the family with murder (and alot more but I'd be typing for days if I even attempted an explaination about all this), who has only recently just been pardoned. Now there was a body which the police somehow came accross and planted- funnily enough except for three resignation, knowbody in the force has ever been held truly accountable for all of this and certainly knowbody has been charged with a criminal offence. It is a f**k up world. I think the problem with Chavez is that the US really don't want him there, because what ever action he takes good or bad he holds the ultimate weapon of proaganda against the US- the Venezuela state owned oil company owns well in Texas, and in theory (and wether this happens or not remains to be seen) all the profits from that go back to the country to help run whatever services are there. The US is afraid that their own citizens are going to start asking why the revenues from US oil companies don't go to help the people whose country the oil is coming from and why the taxes that they do pay on their profits are so miniscule. Everybody has an axe to grind, wether left or right |
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Post by wagnerr on Nov 19, 2005 22:55:39 GMT -5
I think the problem with Chavez is that the US really don't want him there, because what ever action he takes good or bad he holds the ultimate weapon of proaganda against the US- the Venezuela state owned oil company owns well in Texas, and in theory (and wether this happens or not remains to be seen) all the profits from that go back to the country to help run whatever services are there. The US is afraid that their own citizens are going to start asking why the revenues from US oil companies don't go to help the people whose country the oil is coming from and why the taxes that they do pay on their profits are so miniscule. Well, i didn't know that they owned oil in Texas, but i can tell you this much; Venezuelan crude isn't of the quality for refinement into fuel sources, gasoline and such. The bulk of the crude that people get for gasoline refinement comes from the MidEast, and numerous other places around the world too. This could explain why the Venezuelans are searching for other fuel sources, such as in Texas. Hehehe, funny what you say about Ireland. I've only been there once, but yeah, i did see that while the Irish were very friendly to me, it was because i was a visitor. From what they told me, Irish feuds go back centuries, the IRA/RUC conflict included. I've heard that that those two groups are actually looking to stop fighting somewhat. Hey, while were on the subject of Ireland, tell me more about the RUC in NI. What the hell's so fucked up with them? What is it about them that the IRA guys have to keep setting off bombs and such? I just don't get it.  |
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Post by wonkothesane on Nov 22, 2005 8:32:36 GMT -5
[quote author= Hehehe, funny what you say about Ireland. I've only been there once, but yeah, i did see that while the Irish were very friendly to me, it was because i was a visitor. From what they told me, Irish feuds go back centuries, the IRA/RUC conflict included. I've heard that that those two groups are actually looking to stop fighting somewhat. Hey, while were on the subject of Ireland, tell me more about the RUC in NI. What the hell's so fucked up with them? What is it about them that the IRA guys have to keep setting off bombs and such? I just don't get it. That could take a while ;D- I'll get back to you on that one over the weekend, but there is not too much happening here at the moment it's pretty stable in relative terms but both sides are now more polarised then ever |
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Post by wagnerr on Dec 11, 2005 0:56:27 GMT -5
[quote author= Hehehe, funny what you say about Ireland. I've only been there once, but yeah, i did see that while the Irish were very friendly to me, it was because i was a visitor. From what they told me, Irish feuds go back centuries, the IRA/RUC conflict included. I've heard that that those two groups are actually looking to stop fighting somewhat. Hey, while were on the subject of Ireland, tell me more about the RUC in NI. What the hell's so fucked up with them? What is it about them that the IRA guys have to keep setting off bombs and such? I just don't get it. That could take a while ;D- I'll get back to you on that one over the weekend, but there is not too much happening here at the moment it's pretty stable in relative terms but both sides are now more polarised then ever Well, yes, i knew that Adams and Paisley were negotiating a "cease fire", more focused on IRA disbanding. But i also keep hearing that the peace won't last, unfortanetly.  |
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Post by wagnerr on Dec 11, 2005 1:00:46 GMT -5
Oh yes, i almost forgot the original focus of this thread. Socialism could work, yes. However, two key concepts of Socialism must be modified first: 1. Socialists should not seek to establish a dictatorship of the Proletariat. 2. A form of incentive must be formulated to be used in the place of currency, in order to keep up efficient methods of production. |
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Post by wonkothesane on Dec 11, 2005 11:05:22 GMT -5
2. A form of incentive must be formulated to be used in the place of currency, in order to keep up efficient methods of production. Bring back magic beans!!!!! Still have to give you my 'Irish History in one post' post just been stupidly busy in college and trust me it will be a long one. |
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Post by wagnerr on Dec 11, 2005 12:31:59 GMT -5
2. A form of incentive must be formulated to be used in the place of currency, in order to keep up efficient methods of production. Bring back magic beans!!!!! Still have to give you my 'Irish History in one post' post just been stupidly busy in college and trust me it will be a long one. No need to go to all that trouble; i've taken several courses in Irish history myself.  I also help out the director of our Irish Studies Program too; she always needs help, and i often sit on lectures and presentations. Even though i'm not at all Irish, i appreciate their culture and history. Magic beans, hmmm. How do those work? |
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hehe
I also help out the director of our Irish Studies Program too; she always needs help, and i often sit on lectures and presentations. Even though i'm not at all Irish, i appreciate their culture and history.