The pain of low self-esteem

[sushiboat]

Regarding the original post that started the thread....

I try not to worry about being evaluated about who I am, what I know, and what I do. I have a story to tell and a point of view. My story is a work in progress, and the same is true for other people.

If you don't know much about the topic, you still have a point of view. For example: "I've never spent much time following politics, but deep down inside I know it's important. What are your thoughts about the upcoming election?"

At the moment I only have a part-time job teaching at the college level. Not having full time employment -- that sounds like a vulnerable point, doesn't it? It sure feels like one to me. At first, when people asked me what I do, I would bring it up half apologetically. Now I simply say, "I teach ____ at XYZ University." That's all most people want to know. Since I started doing that, I've felt more confident. If someone wants to delve deeper, I am not afraid to go into the details. Instead of focusing on the present, I can switch to the future -- the kind of job I'd like to have, etc.

As far as talking about a stay-at-home life, it's not as hard as you might think. There are plenty of things around the house that people can relate to. My place is a mess, so I'm trying to organize.... I've been experimenting with some new recipes that are healthier.... There are ants in the kitchen, and I was trying to figure out where they are coming from.... I found a great website that lets you.... I was flipping channels and came across this unbelievably stupid show.... And so on.

And yes, find ways to get out of the house. Take a walk in the park or in a shopping mall. Join a club. Do volunteer work. Go to the public library. Get a camera -- a disposable is fine -- and find interesting things to photograph. Go see a movie.

[CaryGrant]

Yes, the original post...

If you're comfortable with yourself, you'll automatically be 'cool.' Know enough about common interest topics to make small talk or have a casual conversation, but don't be surprised if more knowledgeable people leave you in the dust. And watch out for those who SOUND like they know what they're talking about, but don't. For examples, see Lame Duck's very definitive pronouncements about things he lacks experience or knowledge about.

I recently read a great book encouraging people to focus on the things they were naturally good at, and stop beating themselves up about all the rest. Get good enough to get by in those areas, but that's it. So what if politics is not your 'thing'? Or sports, or whatever. The authors pointed out that this is what all truly successful people do...

[brogo]

Way to go GreenFerret! *applauds*

Booooooooooooooo!!!

<<"What kind of person grows up as a very talkative child and then never talks just because he or she “loses his/her self esteem?” I do not buy that. We are genetically program to have a certain range of introvert and extrovert qualities. If you were born near the middle you might change a little on either end but you will not be extremely shy!">> Lame Duck

<<”Well, perhaps the child gets an abusive stepfather or an adult gets in an abusive relationship, where all they do is get abused and are consistently called stupid and worthless. Would that child (or adult) not develop any sort of shy and cautious nature around other people if he/she thinks that he/she is truly worthless and stupid? There are so many different situations and so many possiblilities that I can't see why you can't see that to be possible.”>> StrawberrySweetie

Genetics has more effect than the environment. I never did say that the environment had absolutely no effect. I said you had a genetically predetermined range in which you have certain levels introverted-ness or an extroverted-ness. Just like your genetically predetermined intelligence quotient. You cannot turn a retarded person into a genius with any type of helpful environment and vise versa but everyone’s intelligence quotient will vary to a lesser degree.

<<"I know some people who don’t like sports. These are usually the people who are obsessed with Star Wars, Star Trek, anime, dragon ball z, and so forth. Wow what cool hobbies to have!">> Lame Duck

<<Who are you to say what's "cool" and what's "not"? You just made yourself sound like you're still in middle school with that little immature boy brain. >> StrawberrySweetie

I don’t say it; society says it! The Simpsons portray those fanatics as pure geeks, dweebs, spazzes, etc. What you do NOT agree with them; Are you delusional?

<<"I hid behind my mother's shoulder as an infant when strangers or even relatives came by. You tell me... I was born with extreme shyness but I am improving. I am trying to improve my shyness by acting more bold. No I do not consider myself to have low self esteem in any other area except starting conversations with girls in real life. That is ONLY do to my crappy "shyness" genetics and nothing else IMHO which is why I am a self proclaimed Lame Duck. ">> Lame Duck

<<Perhaps you were extremely shy as a baby, but that was then and this is now. You make it sound like you are scared when you say you are "acting more bold". Why would you be so scared if you didn't have self-esteem issues? >> StrawberrySweetie

Hmmmmmmmm…. As an infant, how the heck could I be anything BUT naturally extremely shy in those circumstances? Why would I not be naturally shy now? Did I lose my confidence as a baby and need to have regained it back to “unleash-the-beast” in me? I don’t think so! I am scared at trying to act bolder because I am shy – not the other way around.

<<Is it just girls that you are "shy" around? If you can't talk to them, then I don't see how you can be all confident about yourself. Do they actually make you nervous to where you clam up or are you just quiet because it's your nature? To me, those are two different things. >> StrawberrySweetie

If as a few month year old, I couldn’t bare to look at my own relatives in the eye then how is that much different from looking a girl I like in the eye now?! What does that have to do with confidence? I tried and thought I had the ‘balls’ to approach a girl just last month and I got within 5 feet of her. She smiled and said “Hi” in a really light girlie-girl feminine voice. She new I was going up to her because I liked her, and I had a panic attack. I couldn’t smile or look her in the eye. My heart was pounding like a jack-hammer. I tried to say “Hi” but for some reason I just couldn’t – I could barely breathe! (I think I got the ‘h’ sound in ok...) She started to giggle at my expense… I blushed like a buffoon – it was sooo embarrassing. Then I pretty much just ran away… Here I am, towering over her by about a foot, twice the weight of her, a lot stronger, she even ‘seemed’ to like me, and I blew it! If that is not shyness, then I guess I don’t know what is……..

[brogo]

Before I start, yikes! I wouldn’t have said that comment if I new I would have to read this 16,796-page novel. (Well, I don’t have to but I think it toughens me up to argue)

GreenFerret said:

Yes! Go Strawberrie Sweetie!! This guy isn't going to get off easy, posting the sort of crap he has. ;D

Tough love, Lame Duck?! What the hell...? What you wrote isn't tough love--it helped nobody, and in no circumstances could help anyone. Michael1973 and a number of others have attested to that. Might I also point out to you that, being a female and not particularly desirous of the testosterone that, according to you, oozes from every pore as you sit on your butt watching other people play games, I was not personally offended by your comment; thus in no way could it or should it "make me stronger." The thing is, I was appalled at the grossly inflated ego and incredible lack of empathy that led to your deriding someone to the point of implying he was not a man, simply because he doesn't like what you like; what you have decided is best. And yeah, you're sooo right. Watching movies and reading books with plots, and using one's creativity to expand on the ideas contained therein--that doesn't hold a candle to sitting around, chanting "defense, defense!" Wow, what a worthwhile way to spend your time--all your time, all your energy, all your effort. Gee, do you like to watch the static on TV too?? That'd really be kickin' it up a notch. Cause you wouldn't want to make the effort to use your muscles or your brain, when it's so much more convenient not to. That's pretty obvious. And no, I'm not saying it's bad to like watching sports: I'm saying it's bad to let watching sports consume your life to the point that they have yours, Lame Duck: to the point when, in fact, you begin to believe that you have a right to put down anyone not similarly obsessed.

Hey, you don’t have to like sports yourself! But respect the athletes and respect the fans… No you are DEAD wrong; this is part of the reason I feel SOOOOO good about myself. I am 6-foot-6, with a 6.666 by 6 and a 6-pack. I have a 35-inch vertical leap, weight lift and run at the gym – which I have been doing for a while so I have big muscles. I play ball frequently also.

Hey tough love doesn’t work for everyone. I should have thought ahead and realized by his lack of typical male hobbies that he couldn’t take it.

GreenFerret said:

And you have certainly not listened to a damn thing people on this site have to say. I don't believe anyone on this site has claimed to have been walking along, a happy extrovert, and then suddenly been mowed down by a single comment that "made them shy." Shyness is arguably most often genetic in great part, and low self esteem is generally a part of this. It comes with being shy for a vast majority of people. Being unable to do the things we want to do, and constantly hearing that it's abnormal and wrong to be shy, plus the additional burden of being a perfectionist which many of us have--that's where the low self esteem comes from. And Strawberrie Sweetie is quite right in saying that years of being put down as a child can definitely induce and/or increase shyness, particularly if a person is already genetically predisposed to being shy. Just as being physically abused leads to the development of certain personality traits, so does being verbally abused. Even in adults, traumatic experiences can cause personality changes; how can you postulate that a child would be unaffected by constant ridicule?

In my case it is 100% genetic. I am not a puss in the physical, intellectual or financial stance. I will admit to being a puss in front of the ladies though. (and its driving me freaking nuts!)

GreenFerret said:

As for getting phone numbers from girls... yeah, you just go ahead and try.

You know what? When I get the “B-A-L-L-S” (see I can use it on myself, that’s not as insulting as you make it seem to be) to do that, I will! Even if she didn’t know squat about me I will have at least one thing going. “You’re soooooooo tall.” To bad I ran away from that one because she intimidated me from being to hot and call me stupid if you like but I didn’t realize what that meant at the time because I was only 16. lol (see I am shy soooooooooooooooooooooooo and I am serious as always)

GreenFerret said:

You say you're sick of being a nice guy; I don't think you've ever actually been one. I know nice guys--ones who like sports even, but aren't obsessed with them as you are--and nice guys would never, ever insult someone for not being just like them. A nice person would have encouraged the person, instead of telling them that their personal feelings--something as indisputable and unquestionable as their propensity for shyness--are wrong and unmanly.

I am NOT obsessed with sports. I know plenty of people with 10 times the interest in it than I do. I just think that it is a good interest to have. Say you have a son someday. Are you going to discourage him from liking sports? What do you think will happen then; Will you want him to stick out among the majority?

I am the nicest SOB on the planet. (OK calm down, I am only half joking but I am VERY nice in real life) No one has EVER said to me, “You are mean” or anything remotely similar. On the other side of the spectrum, I have been told, “You are sooooooo nice,” “You are too nice,” “You are nice,” etc. I am always “nice.”

GreenFerret said:

So you just keep being your usual self, and if you look in the right places for girls who are desperate enough to take up with someone who will question their validity as a human being for being anything other than the "norm" according to you, then yeah; you just might find what you're looking for.

Hey a six-six muscular male with a college degree and a great high paying job has to go for something these days… (Now that one really hurt – you made me cry – you BIG meanie!)

GreenFerret said:

Crappy shyness genetics are one thing. It's very tough to curb or control shyness--we all know that first-hand. But being kind, especially online... THAT is something you can control. So, I guess I missed it: why does any of this make it right for you to ridicule people going through difficulties which, if you esteem yourself so highly, are even worse than what you experience?

Hey, that’s just what you say in effort to get someone to “toughen up” like the stereotypical, society driven, unwritten rule says you should!

GreenFerret said:

How does telling someone who already looks down on himself for being different--how does labeling him as effeminate unless he becomes your disciple and falls in love with all things sporty help him in any way? What is to be gained from telling him he'd better go and enjoy something that he does NOT get any enjoyment from?

If not sports then what? What should a guy like that WON’T make him effeminate and will make him show a reasonable level of testosterone? He gains something “normal” to talk about with the majority of the male population. I forgot to mention that “gambling” and the satisfaction of being smarter than your friends at sports by winning the majority of the bets is a HUGE confidence builder not to mention an overall wealth builder as well.

GreenFerret said:

Tough love is quitting sending money to a grown son or daughter in order to force him/her to get a job and support him/herself. Tough love is cutting off the arm to stop the spread of gangreen to the rest of the body. Tough love is allowing a peaceful death for a family member who is obviously suffering. But tough love is also considered a useful excuse for people who like to toss out insults and bully other people. When confronted, it's quite a cliche for bullies to claim they were merely "toughening up" their victim, who was a "wimp" and therefore somehow deserved such treatment. Hmm, sounds familiar.

Just because of the ‘balls’ comment I am now a bully? There is no “emoticon” for what I am feeling! You obviously misinterpreted the intention of that comment.

[brogo]

GreenFerret said:

So, I'm curious: what point, exactly, do you think this forum serves? Is it not to make people feel better about being different, and to give practical advice for overcoming the obstacles created by our shyness? Why wouldn't you stick to the advice and leave out the insult? What is this higher purpose you think such rudeness served, keeping in mind what other people are very clearly telling you? Were you "toughening up" Michael1973, is that what you're claiming? Do you truly believe you were in the right?! Incredible. And I naively though that one of the "good" side effects of being shy was having a lot of empathy for the suffering of others. I was cynical before... it's always nice to find yet another example of why so many people have lost faith in humanity. I am hoping Strawberrie Sweetie has indeed hit the nail in the head by theorizing that you cannot even really be defined as "shy," despite your behavior as a child. I mean, really: are you still sucking your thumb and drinking from your sippy cup? Things change.

Actually no….. I just pooped and peed my pants; You’re post scared the bejesus out of me!

GreenFerret said:

Hmm, I guess your obnoxious post has actually helped at least one person besides your twisted self. It feels really good to tell an arrogant person what you really think of them, and as I shy person, I don't usually get that chance. I am grateful to you for giving me an opportunity to do so.

I am glad you enjoy expressing your emotions in the form of a “thick novel.” I can certainly see that you love to release and express your emotions.

GreenFerret said:

Now I suggest you go find someplace where cruelty is appreciated by the objects of such insulting posts as yours, because this is not the place for it. So many people here feel so badly about themselves, some of us would tolerate your insults only because we feel too badly about ourselves to deny what you say. I imagine that is why Michael1973 prefaced his response with "I don't mean to be nasty, but..." before posting something ironically completely lacking in nastiness when compared to what you had so blithely written before and then, amazingly, defended when others questioned you. The rest of us (me, Sushiboat, and Strawberrie Sweetie being only a very small taste), on the other hand, will let you know exactly what we think of people like you. I observe that you are so full of yourself that all of this probably has little to no effect, but it is true nonetheless, and will perhaps encourage you to post more thoughtfully in the future. Or does your spite urge you to do the opposite? I suppose it doesn't matter, as long as you realize that there are people out there who aren't going to stand for it and congratulate you for writing such tripe as you did in responding to Michael1973.

Wow, you are very emotional! All this over one little male to male comment that everyone boy or man has probably said to someone else at least once in their life time?

GreenFerret said:

So, there you go. Now, just to spite us, why don't you go find that desperate girl, throw a big party... And hey, put on ESPN and stare at the screen for hours, no, days on end, with your new girlfriend on your knee and your guests all crowded around, until you all become drooling zombies with a vocabulary consisting entirely of sports terms, because there is quite obviously nothing in life worth one's attention other than televised sports. Yeah, that'll teach me. That'll show me how wrong I was to doubt you in all your self-loving, sports-worshipping, unsympathetic glory. What was I thinking.

Hey just because I like sports does not mean I am some sort of “zombie” and that is the only type of words in my vocabulary -- apologize for that remark!!!!! That was very stereotypical of you…

I will be working at my $50k per year job right out of college to start. Eich bein ein reich mann! I will be spending MY money until I get the “balls” to ask a girl out – then I will be spending most of it on us and her alone! I will be standing tall and keeping my head held high regardless in my shyness to initiate conversations with women because I know where I stand in the “food chain” in other areas. And it is NO where NEAR THE BOTTOM!

I will enjoy sports – whether it is playing them, watching them, gambling on them (and winning as usual), reading about them, and especially talking about them. George Costanza: “Do you like sports? I like sports….” “You gotta LOVE sports” (TV via Seinfeld episode)

[brogo]

CaryGrant said:

Yes, the original post...

And watch out for those who SOUND like they know what they're talking about, but don't. For examples, see Lame Duck's very definitive pronouncements about things he lacks experience or knowledge about.

Aye aye captain!

[SpathiEluder]

Lame Duck and other people who mock "nerdy" hobbies are just jealous that they don't have the intellectual capacity to understand them.

I'm a dweeb and a geek, and DAMN FUCKING PROUD OF IT. And you and "society" can go fuck yourselves if you don't like it.

Don't make me roll initiative, jockboy.

[Evarie Fayore]

Lame said:

No I don't believe that self-esteem is related to shyness.

Firstly, it is obvious that you nothing about psychology or genetics. Don't write about things that you know nothing about. Sure, people are predisposed to being either extroverted or introverted (or in between), but be aware that introversion is not synonomous with shyness. It is possible to be an introvert and not shy, just as it is possible to be a shy extrovert. And while introversion and extroversion stay fairly constant throughout a person's lifetime, shyness is subject to change, just as self-esteem is subject to change.

Genetics has more effect than the environment. I never did say that the environment had absolutely no effect. I said you had a genetically predetermined range in which you have certain levels introverted-ness or an extroverted-ness. Just like your genetically predetermined intelligence quotient. You cannot turn a retarded person into a genius with any type of helpful environment and vise versa but everyone’s intelligence quotient will vary to a lesser degree.

Whether genetics or the environment has more effect is debatable. While genetics does play a major role, you can't underestimate the role of the environment, which, in most cases plays a greater role in forming your unique personality and characteristics. And while I agree that you can't turn a retarded person into a genius, I was just taught today in a psychology lecture at my university that if a teacher perceives a child to have more intellectual ability than another, and they give more attention to that child, then in the next year, the child with the perceived intellectual advantage had a greater increase in IQ than the child perceived as 'dull'. The children actually had the same intellectual potential, but environmental factors influenced their IQ scores. So IQ, like many other traits is not neccessarily constant.

Lame said:

In my case it is 100% genetic.

Rarely anything is 100% genetic.

Eich bein ein reich mann!

If you are going to pretend you know German, you should at least get it right. What you want to say is: "Ich bin ein reich Mann"

Even though you seem to have been anything but nice on this board Lame duck, I didn't mean to attack you. It's not in my nature. It's just that I saw some facts that needed to be cleared up. There may be flaws in my arguments though since I'm only in first year at university with still so much to learn (plus it's almost 11:30pm). Don't use any more "tough love" tactics though, it's not very helpful and we want to promote a caring and supportive environment here. Behave from now on, ya?

[GreenFerret]

Lame Duck: I will appologize to you for nothing. Surprise surprise. I would also like to point out that breaking up your posts into multiple posts doesn't make yours any less long in themselves.

I was about to pick apart, in detail, the stupidity of your recent posts, Lame Duck, but I think you have condemned yourself enough by what you have written--the opinions you reaffirmed, the role-models you admitted to, and numerous other idiotic assertions and insinuations... I won't go into them all this time, as I see finally see it's pointless, and I imagine most everyone else will note these parts and sagely ignore them. I have a family member who is almost as illogical and nasty as you are, and I know that to continue will for unknown reasons only strengthen your belief in the righteousness of your arguments, anyway. Besides, I suspect the length of my responses has begun to annoy people more worthwhile than Lame Duck.

So, ok; so there is ONE apology I wish to make: I want to apologize to the other, uninvolved people posting on this thread, in particular Sushiboat and Cary Grant, who did their best to get things back on track. I just looked at this as an opportunity to attack the very sort of attitude that makes shyness such a difficult burden to bear, and I know I am very uncomfortable posting on a forum where I can expect to encounter posts like Lame Ducks'. When I first entered this sight, it seemed like one of the few places in the world where everyone was sympathetic to what everyone else has to go through... A place where no-one would tear anybody down, no matter how "silly" our troubles seemed. Lame Duck's insistence on degrading other people seems like a violation of trust, and I really resent it.

I hope I have not completely corrupted this thread by prolonging the arguing. I guess I should post the sort of response I was planning before I got side-tracked...

IRoseRoared: I know just what you mean; I always feel so ignorant when people talk about things I don't know about, like music, or computer hardware... Geeze. At one point I even tried listening to a popular radio station in order to learn about the things that people often talked about... But I could never pick up all the names and titles and lyrics that my classmates knew so well. I think I'm just not good at that part, and the specifics like that don't really interestd me, even though I like music. So I've given up trying to learn about the things other people like. Instead, when someone brings up something I don't know about, I just ask questions, and usually (unless I ask something really stupid, heh heh) they're happy to elaborate. Then I mostly just listen and hope I pick up some useful or interesting information. It seems like most people don't mind doing the talking about things they like, with just a little encouragement. Being shy, though, makes me reluctant to talk too much about the things I like; I always feel like I'm imposing, if the other person doesn't seem to know much about something. I think it's really true what Cary Grant and Sushiboat say--that the best thing to do is to let yourself be comfortable talking about the things you know about--I know I definitely need to work on that.

[CaryGrant]

Hey Ferret - good advice re: asking questions. If you don't know about a topic, why not ask the person to explain it? I like that, and when they're done, you WILL know something about it for the next time or person.

Re: Lame Duck: you're right to let it go. You'll never win an 'argument' with him, and not because you're wrong. He has certain unshakable beliefs - it's like trying to convince a true believer that there is no god.

I do agree that it's frustrating to have someone come on this site and start slamming others. If the person won't see the error of his ways, I generally just notify Shane and he looks into it and bans them if need be. Lame Duck claims not to need this site, anyway...

[brogo]

Ok I obviously made no friends here. So I will do you all a favor and not post here anymore. Goodbye.

[Fuzzy]

6 feet, 6 inches, 6 pack... [shadow=red,left,300]666[/shadow] ... ur the devil lol.

[glenn miller]

say some more stuff lame duck