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Post by Sanity FreeZ0ne on Nov 11, 2005 20:58:01 GMT -5
Wondering what people think of left-wing socialist idea's - could they work in the UK or the USA?
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Post by wagnerr on Nov 11, 2005 21:25:45 GMT -5
Wondering what people think of left-wing socialist idea's - could they work in the UK or the USA? I thought socialism was already the prevailing political system the in UK. In the US, socialism proved to be a dismal failure in the early 20th century, and has been steadily delcining ever since. I think a lot of Americans were fearful of the destruction that socialism brought to the world in the 20th century, along with its counterpart Facism, and were reluctant to instigate any political change so drastic. It's no so very dramatic. The US faced a violent destructive civil war in the 1860's because of conflicting political and economic systems, and we as a nation have been reluctant to do so again ever since. Thing is, according to harcore Marxism, violence is necessary to uproot the corrupt ruling class of any time, so that the new producers could prevail and control the means of production. I think this violence is unnecessary. Social change needs to come because people want it, not because of a pissed off proletariat in arms. Don't get me wrong; socialism brought a lot of good to the world. But it's cons outwieghed its gains, espeically in Asia. Also, if there was one thing that socialism brought the world in the 20th century it was mass starvation. Millions of people starved to death because of communal farming systems, so this is another undesierable. The athiems inherent in socialism also turns me off to it. Bottom line is, i think society needs to accept facets of socialism and democracy for a political system to work, and cooperate to make civility happen.
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Post by Tal on Nov 12, 2005 4:39:40 GMT -5
I think socialism is misunderstood by many people, and perhaps suffers from a reputation of radicalism, violent revolution and authoritarianism from when it was conceived during the last two centuries. It really needs to be re-worked and re-sold to the general public, because it has a hell of a lot to offer if we can get beyond the taboo that's emerged.
The UK isn't socialist IMO. It's a mixed economy, but predominantly capitalist. There are nationalised institutions such as the NHS, but most companies are now privatised. There is a wellfare system, but it isn't 100% comprehensive and there are no major socialist political parties anymore. It's more left wing than the US, but that doesn't make it socialist.
Socialism or its principle components are possible anywhere given the right economic, social and political environment. It could happen in America one day in the distant future.
No thanks to the Nazi Germany and the USSR, socialism was spun by successive 20th century western governments into being dictatorial, oppressive and 'evil'. Considering both were obvious dictatorships utilising a few socialist economic principles, they hardly represent the potential for socialism as a political alternative to capitalism.
Yes, I disagree with Marx too. You don't need a violent revolution to overthrow capitalism. Even Marx himself changed his mind later in life, suggesting capitalism would collapse by itself. I see it more as an evolution that will take several centuries to complete....well its ongoing so there is no 'end' as such.
Socialism is just another way of describing Humans living in harmony with one another. Where people can interact without the need for capital, where economic inequality is tamed so as not to poverty and greed, where men aren't divided by race, religion, nationality, gender, etc.
In the past there's been too much focus on 'worker's rights', on emancipation, on destroying capitalism, etc and this has sent any moderate, sensible attempts at socialism way off the tracks of political change.
So yes I'm certain socialism could work, if it was re-branded, focused on creating not destroying, universal for every man regardless of wealth, class etc, and evolutionary, not revolutionary.
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Post by wonkothesane on Nov 12, 2005 9:32:57 GMT -5
There has never been a socialist government in any country on the planet- The prevaling political system of all western countries is decided by the IMF and World Bank. Lots of countries said that they were, but like most things in life what you say you are and what you do are two different things. There is hope that Chevez in Venezuela might be on the right road, but there probably a greater chance that he'll turn into another meglomaniac or just get assinated with the help on a particular neighbouring government!
Generally 'ism's' are a very bad thing, they tie you down and make you and the mob do stupid things. and hey even Hittler got elected democratically- probably not the most transparent election ever, but one thing that help him was that an anarchist burnt down the Reichstadt the day before the electrion and ironically it played into the nazi's hands and put the shit's up alot of people to vote for them.
All ism's destroy humanity which is the most important thing- and anyway all this is irrelevant because in twenty years china will be the most powerful nation in the world- most of our 'ism's' will go out the window. And even if the US is militarialy stronger, and there is no garuntee that that will be the case either, it won't matter because China will have the power to collapse the US economy at will if it felt treatened and only do relatively little damage to it's own- welcome to the economic cold war!
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Post by Samantha on Nov 12, 2005 14:14:04 GMT -5
Well admittedly this is a comlex subject but socialism is in my opinion a crock of shit ;D. It may have lofty ideals but they have no basis in reality. It has no understanding of human nature. It is idealism and therefore not realism.
If you think we are all equal you are naive. It is the best and the most brilliant that drives humanity forwards. Stupid people can't be great so the only way to enforce equality is to make the great minds stupid. Equality has to revolve around the weakest. Everyone else has to come down to the level of the weakest citizen. That is not a healthy society. That is a weak society.
Capitalism equals freedom. While I am all for freedom I also understand there has to be rules. There has to be limitations so I believe there should be some restrictions on capatilism in the same way we have laws in society. I am not an out and out capatalist. That doesn't mean though we shouldn't strive to be as free as we can be while maintaining a healthy society.
The best placed to help the weak are the strong. Capatalism encourages strength. That is why the world looks towards capatalist countries (America especially) when they need help.
Capatalism may fuck over other countries but socialism fucks over it's own.
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Post by sushiboat on Nov 12, 2005 14:26:13 GMT -5
I am glad I don't have to live under a king or military dictator, as most people throughout history have. It must have been almost unthinkable that people could govern themselves in the political realm. Some day, I think that people will govern themselves in the economic realm. Whether it is called socialism or something else is irrelevant. People want control over their own lives. They don't want to be ruled by people they didn't elect.
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Post by Tal on Nov 12, 2005 16:22:28 GMT -5
If you think we are all equal you are naive. It is the best and the most brilliant that drives humanity forwards. Stupid people can't be great so the only way to enforce equality is to make the great minds stupid. Equality has to revolve around the weakest. Everyone else has to come down to the level of the weakest citizen. That is not a healthy society. That is a weak society. Hold on... ;D Firstly, you're confusing material equality, moral equality and natural equality (for lack of a better term). Socialism supports material equality (equal wealth) and moral equality (equal rights), but you cannot and shouldn't even try to make people equal in terms of their ability, strength etc. Secondly, why do you assume everyone would be reduced to a lower state...that's irrational. You don't make everyone poor or take away everyone's freedoms, no...you make everyone moderately wealthy so they can live comfortably and you give everyone sufficient freedoms/rights so that no one else's are impinged. You defeat the whole object of socialism if you reduce the quality of life for most people. Capitalism equals freedom. While I am all for freedom I also understand there has to be rules. There has to be limitations so I believe there should be some restrictions on capatilism in the same way we have laws in society. I am not an out and out capatalist. That doesn't mean though we shouldn't strive to be as free as we can be while maintaining a healthy society. Capitalism does not equal freedom. Free market economics may allow for capital to spread freely and for individuals to buy and sell independent of the state, but by no means does capital free people. Firstly you can have monopolies and wealthy elites who control society, technology, politics, media, etc etc etc with the capital. Secondly the capital itself controls people's lives. You become obsessed with how many '0's there are in on the end of the number in your bank account. Everything becomes a commodity, a threat, a liability because it potentially decreases that number. It controls your mind. I agree in current society, we need laws to regulate capitalism, but laws don't solve problems, they just smother them for a while.
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Post by mere phantom on Nov 12, 2005 17:46:03 GMT -5
yes it can work, but will corporations and the rich in america let it happen, no they wont
not until everyone in america is tired of wal-mart jobs (which will be all thats left) will we do soemthing about it, right now the poor and middleclass are too busy fighting each other :/
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Post by pansy on Nov 12, 2005 22:24:14 GMT -5
yes it can work, but will corporations and the rich in america let it happen, no they wont not until everyone in america is tired of wal-mart jobs (which will be all thats left) will we do soemthing about it, right now the poor and middleclass are too busy fighting each other :/ sad but true
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Post by shytothebone on Nov 12, 2005 23:18:39 GMT -5
It is a good idea that everyone has the same, but there are strong and weak the strong is always going to carry the weaks load. That causes dissent and imbalance which causes failure. The Unions are founded on the same principle. Everyone gets the same no matter how hard they work or how hard they don't work or how much they learn. If you make probation and get hired you get the same benefits as a person who has been there 20 years. Is that fair?
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Post by shypsychologyguy on Nov 12, 2005 23:18:54 GMT -5
in a perfect world where everyone acts for the common good it may work. To me its like heaven on earth and it will be impossible to have that.
Is social security considered a socialist policy? im ignorant to that.
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Post by shytothebone on Nov 13, 2005 13:17:35 GMT -5
in a perfect world where everyone acts for the common good it may work. To me its like heaven on earth and it will be impossible to have that. Is social security considered a socialist policy? im ignorant to that. Social Security is meant for everyone but they don't get the same pay because they base that on what you made your whole life. So no it isn't a socialist policy.
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Post by wonkothesane on Nov 14, 2005 8:50:05 GMT -5
Capitalism doesn't work, like evry other ism, cause otherwise we would not be having this discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no truly capitalist society either- capitalism involves the free movement of resources- start your own business and see how untrue that is We all live in oligarchies that make up the rules as they go along to maintain the maximum power they can at a given time without driving the common population to lynch them (sometimes they wake up )! Some countries population have just been able to wrestle a bit more control then others- often at the expense of populations in other countries, but that doesn't mean they actually have real freedom
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Post by shytothebone on Nov 14, 2005 12:55:32 GMT -5
Capitalism doesn't work, like evry other ism, cause otherwise we would not be having this discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no truly capitalist society either- capitalism involves the free movement of resources- start your own business and see how untrue that is We all live in oligarchies that make up the rules as they go along to maintain the maximum power they can at a given time without driving the common population to lynch them (sometimes they wake up )! Some countries population have just been able to wrestle a bit more control then others- often at the expense of populations in other countries, but that doesn't mean they actually have real freedom Uh I think this post said socialism
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Post by wagnerr on Nov 14, 2005 13:06:38 GMT -5
Capatalism may fuck over other countries but socialism fucks over it's own. Very well Said, lol. Living in Harmony? Now you sound like a proponent of fundamentalism buddy. One of things i have noticed that tends to prevail when racism is eliminated is that classism taks charge. I noticed this in Europe myself, in addition to US as well. Racism is a purely imperial concept; imperial countries denote racism as a way of placing themselves above those they rule. Now, take away racism, and what do you get? Classism. In particular, over the last fifty years, as African Americans become accepted in the US societies, people begin to deviate on terms of how well prepared they are to face the society of equality. I see some blacks that only reinforce racial prejudice in some peoples' minds, and some that make their whole race look incredibly intelligent and eloquent. Point is, they are differnet because they have faced the worl differently, and are differently equipped to handle it. Some handle it by trying to be as ghetto as possible; some handle it by making themselves resemble the society that shuns them. All of this are portions of classism. Classism happens where there is an uneven distrubution of wealth among members of the same race or ethnic group. Socialism may attempt to eliminate those inequities, but we have yet to seen it occur. Seems to me that socialism more than anything has been the dogma of one man's vying for power on the earth, over another prevailing system. Hence, revolution occurs, and not simply civil war.
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