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Post by k151 on Nov 19, 2009 2:18:08 GMT -5
Hopefully you all remember me, I haven't been here for quite awhile. Anyhow, I'll get right into my rant. Sometimes I really don't like people. I'm not always a misanthrope. I sometimes get in moods where I'm immensely proud of the human race. I sometimes sit in awe of what we have done. But for the last few days, I've been reading about Sylvia Likens and other victims. For anyone that doesn't know; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_LikensThe whole story can be found here. www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/likens/1.htmlTo summarize; the poor girl was tortured and brutalized in nearly every conceivable way for several weeks in 1965, which ultimately led to her death. Who was responsible? A train wreck of a woman, her kids and some kids living in the neighborhood. Some of the kids were as young as 10-12 years old. The woman was "looking after" Sylvia and her sister in exchange for $20 per week from Sylvia's parents. The woman, Gertrude, was mainly responsible for the whole situation. However, some of the kids were worse than Gertrude when it came to the actual torture. The kids would gleefully burn and kick Sylvia. I needn't go into all the details, they are out there if you really want to know. I was born over 2 decades after Sylvia died, but I still cry over her murder. I still wish I could go back to 1965 and save her. I wish, at the very least, I could go back and comfort her and tell her she is loved. Sylvia's murder is peculiar for the fact that it was done by children, many of them female, and was dragged out for so, so long. But she isn't the only person tortured to death, not by a long shot. As I type this now, people are getting tortured. People have been tortured since humans have been in existence. Just recently, there was the story of a girl being repeatedly raped just outside a school. What the fuck is wrong with us?! WHY? WHY do we do this? Not all of the people involved in Sylvia's murder were sociopaths. None of them lived particularly evil lives prior to Sylvia's murder. What could have compelled them to turn on this poor, innocent girl so suddenly and viciously? The same might be said of the rapists of that girl. Had the situation not come about, would they all have eventually raped someone else? I don't think so. Sylvia's murder, and evil in general, just makes me hate the human race. I hate people, because I know we are all capable of evil to some extent. It's not enough that humans have a tendency towards violence, in the sense of "I shot him and he died", but there's also people thinking "I tortured her to death. I enjoyed seeing her suffer. I was filled with joy at the sight. Seeing a defenseless girl fighting for her life makes me so happy." Why are we so terrible to each other? I can't stop thinking about all this, and I just keep feeling more despair. I know this isn't a very nice topic, but I'm just so upset about the whole thing.
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Post by agenericgirl on Nov 19, 2009 10:38:48 GMT -5
Why are we so terrible to each other? I can't stop thinking about all this, and I just keep feeling more despair. I know this isn't a very nice topic, but I'm just so upset about the whole thing. Personally, I think when people do things like this it's because they don't have God in their life.
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Post by strawberrysweetie on Nov 19, 2009 15:43:05 GMT -5
Hey! I posted in the "disturbing films" thread about a movie I was absolutely horrified by....Jack Ketchum's The Girl Next Door, which was somewhat based on the story of Sylvia Liken's case. Supposedly there's another film, An American Crime, which is supposed to be more accurate of the real story I think. But I haven't watched it yet. I was so disturbed by the other one, I'm kind of scared of to. :S And I wouldn't recommend either one to you. Seeing this crap visually only makes it all the more disturbing. Her experience is definitely one of the worst cases of child abuse that's come about. The crimes against her were absolutely atrocious. And the fact that a female was the sole leader and brainwashed kids to be involved is what makes it seem 100x worse I think, because you just expect women to be the nurturing type and children to be innocent. It is awful. WHY? WHY do we do this? Not all of the people involved in Sylvia's murder were sociopaths. None of them lived particularly evil lives prior to Sylvia's murder. What could have compelled them to turn on this poor, innocent girl so suddenly and viciously? The same might be said of the rapists of that girl. Had the situation not come about, would they all have eventually raped someone else? I don't think so. I don't have time to read the whole true story you posted...but I will definitely have to once I get the chance.... just some thoughts based on what I know... The thing I found most disturbing was the fact that kids in the neighborhood (not just Gertrude's own kids) took part. And somehow never revealed anything at all to their own parents about what was going on? Especially when they're so young, you'd think they'd say something to their own parents. I suppose you have to consider the time period too...when maybe things weren't spoken of so openly, and people were more secretive about their own lives. And adults seem to have ultimate power over children...they seem to have the authority, so they should be right, right? It's absolutely horrible sick, demented, twisted adults can use that to their advantage and brainwash kids, which I think had to have been done in this case. It kind of reminds me of the psychological experiment...Milgram's experiment where people think they are administering shocks against someone who keeps getting an answer wrong. The person at the other end complains of having heart problem and not wanting to continue, but the subject just looks to the experimenter whether or not to proceed. It's placing faith in higher authority, assuming if they say it's okay to proceed it must be okay and so they keep on going. Don't know if I explained that well, but....yeeaaah, it's weird/scary to think about. Sylvia's murder, and evil in general, just makes me hate the human race. I hate people, because I know we are all capable of evil to some extent. It's not enough that humans have a tendency towards violence, in the sense of "I shot him and he died", but there's also people thinking "I tortured her to death. I enjoyed seeing her suffer. I was filled with joy at the sight. Seeing a defenseless girl fighting for her life makes me so happy."Why are we so terrible to each other? I can't stop thinking about all this, and I just keep feeling more despair. I know this isn't a very nice topic, but I'm just so upset about the whole thing. People who think that...enjoy witnessing torture of a completely innocent human being...are seriously demented, sick and twisted. There is some psychological/biological component that makes them that way, I believe anyway. I think concerning such scary cases as this, it's best to think of it as RARE...and not expect to be able to generalize it to everyone. I really don't think the majority of people would enjoy seeing someone suffer. But there are so many factors to consider. The woman's background. The children's background....did they grow up in abused homes, were they used to witnessing violence? And if not, then something else is going on. Why are we so terrible to each other? I can't stop thinking about all this, and I just keep feeling more despair. I know this isn't a very nice topic, but I'm just so upset about the whole thing. Personally, I think when people do things like this it's because they don't have God in their life. I'm sorry...but that definitely doesn't explain everything. Some people have a God...and yet kill in his name, supposedly. And then some people don't have a God and yet would never even dream of harming another human being. In the end, I think we're just a highly complicated, unpredictable species. It's all very confusing. I just think it's important to find people that you trust, maintain enough belief that there is good in the world and that there are good people. Don't forget all the ways in which we've helped one another.
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Post by k151 on Nov 21, 2009 1:46:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. I've actually seen both. I saw The Girl Next Door about a year ago and I just watched An American Crime a few days ago. Both were disturbing. The Girl Next Door didn't do much more than sicken me. An American Crime did more, it motivated me to learn more about this case as well as others. It's not just a morbid fascination, I almost feel obligated to learn about it. An American Crime isn't as violent as The Girl Next Door. I think the point of the film was to tell Sylvia's story, and showing every terrible detail is unnecessary in that goal. Ah ya, I forgot about that. It really shows us how easy it is to brainwash people. Definitely scary. It could explain why things like the Holocaust or slavery are possible. When enough people in power say it's OK, the masses seem to just go along with it. Not a very comforting thought. To do that though, the victims need to be dehumanized in the minds of the perpetrators. Normal people would never go along with genocide or slavery if they thought of the victims as equals. I still have trouble absolving the kids of blame. It's one thing for Gertrude to be there saying "OK John, burn her. It's OK, do it, we are punishing her." It's quite another for John to call his friends over and have them take turns beating the poor girl. In many cases, Gertrude wasn't even around. John, Paula and the other kids were just doing it for fun. There was no pressure from that authority figure (Gertrude). That's really what I don't understand. That's a good point. It's clear that Gertrude was seriously messed up, as was Paula. If another adult was down in that basement, watching what was going on, I'd like to believe he/she would be horrified, not entertained. The problem with that is; Gertrude Baniszewski did believe in God, she went to church every week. She would be at church hearing about god even as Sylvia lay in her basement, tortured beyond belief. That's also a problem for me, since I'm an atheist. The reason I don't worry about my own morals is because I'd never, ever do anything in the "name of god". I do things that are based on logic, reason and evidence. I avoid doing things that result in unnecessary pain or suffering to another living thing. I have no god to fall back on as an excuse. Every bad thing I've done is my own fault for me to explain. I can never say "it's god's will" as an excuse, so I feel more responsible for my morality and my actions. That's just how I feel, but I also don't think people of faith are inherently any worse or better than me when it comes to morality.
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Post by strawberrysweetie on Nov 23, 2009 17:56:23 GMT -5
It's not just a morbid fascination, I almost feel obligated to learn about it. yeah, I can understand that. Ah ya, I forgot about that. It really shows us how easy it is to brainwash people. Definitely scary. It could explain why things like the Holocaust or slavery are possible. When enough people in power say it's OK, the masses seem to just go along with it. Not a very comforting thought. To do that though, the victims need to be dehumanized in the minds of the perpetrators. Normal people would never go along with genocide or slavery if they thought of the victims as equals. I still have trouble absolving the kids of blame. It's one thing for Gertrude to be there saying "OK John, burn her. It's OK, do it, we are punishing her." It's quite another for John to call his friends over and have them take turns beating the poor girl. In many cases, Gertrude wasn't even around. John, Paula and the other kids were just doing it for fun. There was no pressure from that authority figure (Gertrude). That's really what I don't understand. Didn't she sort of dehumanize the girl, though? Making the kids think she was so bad that she deserved so much torture...as though it was punishment? I don't know, though. Just from the stuff I've read from wiki, if that's a reliable source (lol), they did some really horrible things that you would think they'd be wise enough to realize she is human and nobody deserves to be treated like that. You'd especially think you could expect better from the neighborhood kids, considering they were raised by different people. Which is why I was wondering if it was just a bad neighborhood in general. But I don't know, it really is horrible no matter what.
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Post by agenericgirl on Nov 26, 2009 2:47:12 GMT -5
The problem with that is; Gertrude Baniszewski did believe in God, she went to church every week. She would be at church hearing about god even as Sylvia lay in her basement, tortured beyond belief. I don't know, she may have been seeking God, but it's also possible she was using churchgoing as a cover for her real nature. I just can't believe she truly had God in her life. She obviously had no moral compass.
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Post by pluralzalpha2 on Feb 8, 2010 1:04:51 GMT -5
i can understand how you feel k151. i can't watch violence esp. if there's torture or rape scenes, etc. on tv. it upsets me very much and sometimes i have nightmares. i find it hard to read about things like you described, like in the newspaper, etc.; and no, i don't think religion or lack thereof is the full or total explanation of why some people do atrocities such as these. some believe in god and act like it; some profess to believe in god and live as if they do not know him ("they profess to know God, but in works deny him..." - Titus chapter 1, New Testament); others are, as you mentionend, athiest, but would never dream of torturing or raping, etc. another human being.
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