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Post by shyiscool on Apr 4, 2006 18:17:05 GMT -5
Greenferret, instead of referring to me as a pronoun, why don't you ask a question? Or criticize the points I've laid out? C'mon now, you don't want to be seen as a superficial sally, do you? WTF? You are one of the most pedantic and poorly socialized people I've encountered on these boards. Let's call your Pedantic Pubert as long as we're handing out catchy nicknames. Conversation, discussion, any social interaction at all--they're not the rigid structures you seem to imagine. You believe in your "method" of impressing women mainly because to you, even socialization *has* to be defined within a system you understand. I think it's mainly bullshit, and unoriginal bullshit at that. I'm not going to argue in depth, point-for-point against the same stale argument that the females on this board have been refuting since we came here, every single time I see the subject come up. If you think that's shallow, you might want to check your definitions again. Let me tell YOU something. No, let me tell you a couple of things. First: Everyone has an agenda, but there are those who argue eloquently and earnestly--and there are those who present their case with a self-satisfied swagger and the assumption that their listeners are inferior beings in need of the enlightenment only they can provide. The latter is what I would call "salesman-like," thought of course there are many shades of gray in between. And let me tell you, too, that if this were real life instead of a message board, I would have been on the other side of the room the second you started to sermonize on you woman-catching methods. Sorry if my style doesn't sit right with you. I don't get up each morning looking for ways to offend people. I'm not that eloquent, but I am earnest If you move to the 'other side of the room', I won't chase you. If you want to sit next to me, I'd be honored to talk out ideas, it's sure we won't agree on everything. I'm not concerned about what other females may have stated in other parts of this board at other times. I'm interested in what people in this thread want to discuss now. Thanks for your feedback, and I hope to see more from you here in the thread!
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Post by shyiscool on Apr 4, 2006 18:22:49 GMT -5
The problem is that 'nice guys' tend not to ask girls out so they never stand a chance. The so-called bad boys don't care if they're rejected so they ask out girls all the time, eventually one of them will say yes. If you had the conviction to risk rejection and pursue any girl you want, the chances are you'd get a girlfriend. Fighter's got something here. But I wouldn't want to be a bad boy, not at all. Both "Bad Boy" men and "You'd be lucky to have me" women make bad mates. It's better to be nice. The problem is for the men who substitute being nice for being men. Be a man first, then be nice. And sometimes, be cocky and funny too.
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Post by shyiscool on Apr 4, 2006 18:25:38 GMT -5
which is the category the ever whining nice guys fall into It isn't "Nice" guys that are unappealing to woman. Its men who are push-overs. Men who have no back bone finish last...anyone without back bone finishes last. Its those who put everyone and everything before themselves because they are afraid to do anything but. Being kind and considerate is a totally different thing to allowing people to walk all over you. You can say that women don't know what they want all you want. I know what I want. I can't be the only one. Kindness and consideration is something that I have always looked for and appreciated. That alone isn't enough, but I certainly find it to be a valuable attribute. Being arrogant...cocky whatever you'd like to call it...I suppose your idea of the "alpha male" (or at least the way I've interpreted it) has never appealed to me. It's always put me completely off the moment I find out. Of course there are women who go for this, I'm just saying not all women do. All I have to go on is my personal experience, and my experience doesn't match up to the nice is bad concept. I guess its mostly about balance. . Crash, I think you're onto something here! You are describing exactly what I describe, but in slightly different terms. What you are writing here rings true in my ears!
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Post by shyiscool on Apr 4, 2006 18:28:11 GMT -5
Everyone starts out liking politeness and consideration. But if you are Jessica Alba or Charlize Theron, you are constantly bombarded with guys asking how you are doing and complimenting you. It gets old. You would think, great, another horny guy who wants to get in my pants. There wouldn't be enough hours in the day to let them all chat you up. Women who aren't in that league of physical attractiveness don't get that bombardment so they don't have to develop as much of a defense against horny guys making polite and considerate comments. Why should I feel any differently when I know the only reason a strange guy is chatting me up is because he's a horny guy who wants to get in my pants? Heaps of guys on here have alluded that the only time they bother talking to or making friends with a girl is if he has desire for her. You are looking for a way to stand a part from the masses who approach with the same motive and use niceness and compliments to get in the door. I have no idea what kind of dingbats asf crap works on but it certainly isn't any women I know. Snot Pnats, I'm just curious, Even if you are certain that all of the men who approach you do so because they are attracted to you, why do you assume that each of those same men would end up wanting to stay with you? "Being Attractive" is a zero skill game, and doesn't amount to much in and of itself. I could have missed something, if so, please correct me. Your words are provocative to me and I want to try to understand exactly where you are coming from.
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Post by shyiscool on Apr 4, 2006 18:30:46 GMT -5
Isdima, I did not read your links yet, but I agree with your assessment of niceness as a strategy (but I think its a bad strategy). I think that the guys who have trouble with some kinds of women are nice as a defence against their own weakness rather than nice as a trait of their character. I'm going to read your links soon and I'm glad you posted them.
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Post by shyiscool on Apr 4, 2006 18:33:15 GMT -5
Would you stop trying to discredit what I say. Very few of my relationships of any sort work out because I have a very annoying habit of keeping people at arms length...something that I'm working on Currently its working out great. Funny how they claim to be the relationship experts but neithe of them ever talks about any relationship past or present. Maybe they should share how it is working for them. When someone teaches me something that I can verify as true, it doesn't matter much to me whether he learned it from a book or from a ride on the bull.
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Post by shyiscool on Apr 4, 2006 18:35:33 GMT -5
I really don't buy this nice guy finishes last business. There seem to be plenty of guys who I would consider nice that are getting on fine. Right on. But you won't see many emotionally codependent men getting along just fine. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find even a single example.
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Post by pnoopiepnats on Apr 4, 2006 18:46:22 GMT -5
Snot Pnats, I'm just curious, Even if you are certain that all of the men who approach you do so because they are attracted to you, why do you assume that each of those same men would end up wanting to stay with you? I could have missed something, if so, please correct me. Your words are provocative to me and I want to try to understand exactly where you are coming from. Where did I assume someone approaching me would want to stay with me? I didn't write that.
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Post by shyiscool on Apr 4, 2006 18:54:36 GMT -5
There are many movies out there that show good examples of how the self assured man responds in given situations.
I forget the title of the movie that comes to mind, but in the scene the man wants to get closer to the woman, befriends her, and due to his schedule, he is available to watch her child so she can do some kind of social advancement.
He offers.
She says "I don't want any kind of romantic relationship with you, that's why I'm not so sure it's a good idea".
And without missing a beat, he responds "That's perfect, because I'm not at all attracted to you that way, and I really love spending time with the little one...this will work out fine."
And then the film cuts to her face to show her reaction of total shock to what he said. It's a classic scene. Of course, she is disarmed, and he assumes the position that is more naturally his.
Let me state something up front: NO, I do not draw my own theories and philosophies from hollywood or any other media! But when I see a great example of a concept that I know to be true, I am happy to quote the source!
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Post by shyiscool on Apr 4, 2006 18:58:19 GMT -5
Snot Pnats, I'm just curious, Even if you are certain that all of the men who approach you do so because they are attracted to you, why do you assume that each of those same men would end up wanting to stay with you? I could have missed something, if so, please correct me. Your words are provocative to me and I want to try to understand exactly where you are coming from. Where did I assume someone approaching me would want to stay with me? I didn't write that. You're right, I checked, and you didn't write that. I apologize. I think what I wanted to emphasize is that it's no great feat for a pretty girl to attract attention, and it's no surprise that the majority of men who approach her will be on the feeble side underneath it all. That's sort of a 'given'.
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Post by shyiscool on Apr 15, 2006 21:23:41 GMT -5
Gym77Zen, thanks for your post, you started a great thread. It is true that Shy guys sometimes end up with the short end of the stick in their dating relationships. Not to worry, there is a way around this condition. I've posted enough in this thread and we have had enough feedback for me to say that in fact, it's not 'nice guys' who finish last. Instead, it's 'emotionally dependent' guys who finish last. The fact of the matter is that men who are emotionally dependent on women are usually described as "nice" by those women. What that means is that when a shy guy is having trouble with his women (yes, his 'women', plural), and when they finally ditch him, and when they tell him "You're really a nice guy, but ...." as they ditch him, they guy is usually left clueless about what really happened. My position is that the shy guy who keeps getting labeled as "nice" by the women who dump him, well that guy does not need to stand for that. The problem is not that he is too nice, the problem is that he hasn't yet understood his role as the man in the relationship. Here in this forum in this very thread I have shown the basics of what happens. I have shown that being nice is not the problem. I have shown what the problem really is: the real problem is that some men do not understand how men and women are meant to interact, and so they themselves become "nice guys" who try to prove themselves to women, when in fact, it is women who need to prove themselves to good men in the perfect model of how relationships work. To those men who have met me indirectly in email through AIM and MSN and Yahoo messenger contacts made as a result of our common bond here on this site, continue to contact me by email but don't forget to research my comments here on the shyunited site. For other men who are curious about why they simply can't get ahead with women, just respond here. Now that we have established that men and women are different and are destined to thrive in different roles in the romantic relationship, we need to discuss a few more things. For example, we need to show : 1. How the man is the natural leader in any monogamous relationship 2. How the woman wants the man to be the natural leader, no matter how feministic she claims to be. 3. The tests the woman will throw at the man to see if he in fact will assume his natural rights in the relationship 4. what happens when the man fails the tests that the woman throws at him. We should talk more about these tests, of course. Gym77zen, your question is sincere but short. The answer to your question is rather complex. Thousands of men have the same question as you Let's explore the thing until its very end. So far, we've shown that men and women have different capabilities biologically. We've also shown why it is natural for the man to take the lead in a relationship. Let's go to the next step now ! Let's prove how women test men, and lets start to discuss the difference between the reactions of the men who don't know that the women are testing them, as opposed to the reactions of the men who already knew that the women would be testing them. The reason why it is so important to understand this part of human nature is because there is a huge gap between the men who understand it and the men who don't. The men who don't get it are the "nice guys who finish last", as Gym77zen stated at first. The men who do understand it are the normal guys who end up having an excellent woman hanging off their arms, if that is what they want. Thanks to all who particiipated up to this point, whether you agreed or dissented! Everyone's comments are useful as examples to helping the "nice guys" to get closer to the truth. John
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Post by shyiscool on Apr 15, 2006 21:41:24 GMT -5
About understanding of how women test men, let me ask a rhetorical question: My quesiton is adressed to all the "nice guys" out there. OK Nice Guys! Here's the question: (And let's start with the simplest and most basic of tests that the woman with throw at the man!) You planned all week to go see this concert at some particular place. You and your date talked about it at length. Of course, she told you how excited she is to go to that place with you. You've already gone out three times, and so you are starting to get into synch with each other. You pick her up, and you are on your way to the concert. All of a sudden, she tells you that she is not feeling well, and that she might vomit, although she doesn't suggest to you what you should do. What do you do? If you already know exactly what to do in this simplest of all 'girl test' situations, then don't even answer. Just enjoy wathcing other men answer. If you don't already understand that this type of test is one of the simplest and most common tests a girl throws at a guy, then go ahead and answer as best you can The point is not really to talk about this particular test. The point is to show "Nice Guys" that there is an awful lot of activity that happens in the relationship that is designed by HER to see how YOU will react. "Nice Guys" often get the thing wrong, and often don't even understand that they were being tested in the first place. Men who are educated about how women court already anticipated this kind of scene on the second date, and were sort of surprised if it didn't happen by the third date. But the important thing is that they understood all possible tests in advance, they understood the statistics behind when each test was most likely to appear, and no matter when it appeared, they were confident to know how to handle each test if and when it appeared. Nice Guys, Do you see? OK, enought for now Nice guys, don't worry. The things I am telling you, you can see them as real for yourself even online if you know where to look. Finally, let me say that good women don't need to be trained. Good women are naturally inclined to help you into assuming your natural role in the relationship. Whatever I have to say, I'm not saying it to maladjusted people. I'm speaking to good people who are having a bit of trouble understanding what is happening all around them. Thanks Gym77zen for your question, and thanks to all who are following the thread! John
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Post by zaab on Apr 16, 2006 1:26:35 GMT -5
If she is sick to her stomach, truly, then I drive her back home, reschedule, wish her well, whatever. If she is fine and merely designing a test for me, I drive her back home, wish her well, don't bother rescheduling and look harder for an honest girl.
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Post by aforgottenmemory on Apr 16, 2006 6:16:53 GMT -5
Oh for the love of...
Shyiscool, women do not throw out tests for guys. The same way guys do not throw out tests for women.
For the few that do, I really couldn't care less for them and quite frankly would be able to see through their pitiful transparent ways.
This might come as a bit of a shock to you but it really isn't all that difficult to find someone. What is difficult is finding someone you're compatible with.
The majority of guys on this forum don't have a problem with 'technique' but shyness. Unfortunately through shyness a lot of guys can become desperate (doesn't apply to all shy guys) and go to the extreme of being too nice. Basically acting as a doormat because they're so scared of the idea of blowing a possible romantic relationship, even way before the time they actually get to know the person they're dating.
Basically a lot of the 'nice guys' who whine about how women only want bad boys are just being bitter and resentful. Not only that they're actually far more in love with the idea of having a partner than the person they're dating...which is ridiculous. The fantasy of the whole thing basically clouds people's judgment.
The social rules of dating are not so different from that of a new friend. If another guy were to give his number to you and say, "Cool, we should hang out sometime" you wouldn't give it a second thought. Heck you probably wouldn't care if you'd only just met him.
But an attractive girl does the same thing and it's suddenly pandemonium in some guys heads, when in reality it was just as casual had a guy done it.
Even if there is some interest at the start the same rules apply. You shouldn't be thinking about someone you don't know so much. All you end up doing is trying to do all the romantic love sick things far too early on into a relationship that hasn't developed.
Kind, considerate, respectful and dependable are qualities most people are looking for in a significant other. These don't make someone any less attractive unless you take it to extreme levels because you're scared of losing someone who took just a little interest in you.
Much like with Sushiboat and lsdima, I agree with the basic principal of what you're saying. What I don't agree with is how far in the other direction you take things, because though I would say that your advice would lead to slightly more attractive qualities than the extreme niceness of the nice guy, the outcome would still be the same (in the long run) because there are just as many unattractive qualities in the "over the top" methods you're talking about.
No clingy, needy and smothering is not good. Think of it again from the point of view that you've just made a new male friend. How would all of you feel if he kept ringing you every five minutes everyday...annoying huh? You don't even know this person that well. Same applies on the dating scene.
To be honest the second a lot of you guys realize that women are human beings, the easier you'll find it to get a worthwhile girlfriend.
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Post by griffins on Apr 19, 2006 23:48:19 GMT -5
This is a post is from another forum and i think it is brilliant. I agree with it totally and think it should end this seemingly endless 12 page debate! Sorry its long but hey I just skimmed through those 12 pages!!
There is a prize to the person who correctly answers this question, What is a Man? When asked what they want in a guy, women say simply, "A MAN!" But, alas!, real men are becoming more and more rare these days. Women are tired of the sensative wimps who have no backbones. One women even wrote a song about the subject, "Where have all the cowboys gone?"
"Ladies! Do tell me, what do you define as a Man?"
With devilish tongues, the women answer:
"A Man is someone sensative to me." "A Man is the guy who will take care of my needs." "A Man is the one that is in tune with my feelings." "A Man is one who doesn't have an ego." "A Man is the guy who will sit and watch chick flicks all day with me." "A Man is the guy who will go shopping with me." "A Man is the guy who will share all his feelings with me."
Such are the common answers! The males listen and actualize what the women say. They are constantly declared 'sweet' and 'wonderful' and 'nice', oh 'so nice'. Mothers and older women are proud of them and tell them, "If I were younger, I would go for you!"
Poor Nice Guy! The women his own age avoid him like the plague and jump for the jerks. The Nice Guy becomes an emotional tampon to be used and discarded. The Nice Guy, being so nice and sweet, listens to the woman vomit her feelings about men and bleed her problems of her boyfriend on him. He listens with baited hope when he hears, "Oh, why can't guys be like you! You listen and understand." Then she turns around and gets abused by another jerk! The vicious cycle repeats again and again.
Why are women acting in this way?
They are simply acting as women do, as in their nature. The problem is not with them, it is with guys. We are afraid to embrace OUR nature, that of being a Man. Being in a culture that sees Manhood as predatory and oppressive and uncouth, we cover it up within ourselves. By doing so, we hide our sexuality. (Sexuality! Do I mean rock hard abs and rippling muscles? That is not what women find sexy [it's a contributing factor, not the core]. A type of PERSONALITY is what women are looking for. Someone they can depend on [has backbone], someone who will be successful [has ambition], and someone who is decisive [has charge]. Nice guys have no backbone because they think women are frail things that will break in confrontation; nice guys reveal no ambition because they fear being seen as arrogant to women; nice guys are afraid to be decisive for fear of being seen as 'oppressive'.)
Two poles of thought men drift into: the Nice Guy and the Jerk. Both blame the other.
"You ruin the women with your lack of commitment and unappreciative nature," says the Nice Guy.
"You spoil the women with your endless listening ear and stupid caring attitude," replies the Jerk.
The two endlessly war. Those on the sidelines have their own conclusions. One side says, "The Jerk is the way to go. Ceaseless sex! Evolution demands it." The other side says, "The Nice Guy is the way to go. Glorious relationship! Society demands it."
But the two still argue.
"You cause the women to think they are in control," says the Jerk.
"Ahh, but you cause the women to think all men are scum," replies the Nice Guy.
Is there not an end to the Nice Guy vs.Jerk debate? Are these the only choices?
The Cycle
The Nice Guy emerges. He is tenderized and wants to shout in every woman's ear "I will not abuse you. I am sweet and good. Based on that alone you should date me." When the Nice Guy talks to the girl on a date, *poof*, the date turns into Oprah. "Oh, my life has been SO downhill from here," the Nice Guy whines. "My little girly car was slashed, I failed my classes, but because of you this day has been so much better." Then the Nice Guy goes, "Let me tell you my life story. My birth was long, hard, and painful for my mother..." Our culture has become so feminized that the Nice Guy thinks it is proper to vomit his feelings and emotions all over the place. (It's gross!) Women, rightfully, run for the hills when they hear your declarations of love.
The Metamorphosis comes. The Nice Guy eventually realizes what all the ladies want, becomes bitter, and changes himself into a Jerk. His goal now is to sleep with as many women as possible and figure out all the tricks and tactics to do so. He focuses on calculation rather then natural joy. When a woman comes, he pulls out a chart of all the 'moves' and 'tactics' with arrows and patterns. He unleashes his lap top, accesses a Lay Guide, and reviews his strategy. Time passes and once was fun becomes meaningless.
Back to being nice. He sees it now as turning on Nice Guy or turning on Jerk. "Why can't I just be myself!?" he soon thunders at Reality.
Just be a Man! There is no need to reprogram yourself. You will have the interests you have, the hobbies you have, the body you have, but you can easily become a MAN. It is all simply in the way how you think and as you think you shall become. But what is Man? Shall we have the answer? Here it is:
A Man is a guy who is not scared of his testosterone!
A Man follows the passion in his life. Passion of women? Of course not. A Man has goals and desires that goes above that of chasing chicks. After childhood, there are TRUE winners and losers in life. A Man desires to be the winner. A Man WANTS to win in what he does. Because of his passion, a Man can sometimes come off as arrogant and egotistical. He does not apologize for this or for his desires.
"It is your actions that cause the disgrace of Men," says the Nice Guy.
"It is yours," replies the Jerk.
No, gentlemen, the disgrace of men is in not embracing your true nature: following your passion and, thus, loving life. Women are to enhance your life, not to be your life. So to the Nice Guy, stop placing your happiness on getting a girlfriend. To the Jerk, quit wasting your life on seduction. Don't SPEND your time chasing girls, INVEST it by putting it into your interests and desires, thus the whole of your life.
When you do this, all of a sudden you have what every woman wants: Ambition, charge, decisiveness, backbone, kindness, stableness, and confidence.
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