marcus
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by marcus on Nov 22, 2005 13:54:14 GMT -5
That's interesting - morality as an extension of territoriality, yeah? Sounds like some of Dave Wolverton's (a scifi author, I think) ideas
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Post by wagnerr on Nov 22, 2005 16:08:20 GMT -5
That's interesting - morality as an extension of territoriality, yeah? Sounds like some of Dave Wolverton's (a scifi author, I think) ideas I don't know, but it is possible. People get defensive about what's theirs more so than other peoples' property. So right and wrong, good and evil may have developed along these lines over the millenia.
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Post by lennythegiant on Apr 8, 2007 2:46:13 GMT -5
Personally I agree that good, bad and evil are human creations and not universal truths. The universe is a very big place. The only place in the universe where morals can possibly exist, as far as I know, is the relatively small planet of Earth. Morals only make sense in the context of human interaction. Morals can only exist in the minds of humans. If Earth is likely the only place in the universe where good and evil would matter, who cares about the rest of the universe? We know generally based on feelings and emotion and the consequences of what people do to each other what is "good" or "evil", and IMO that is good enough.
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Post by Orionation on Apr 21, 2007 15:03:10 GMT -5
Good and evil existed long, long before the Bible did. In fact modern religions adopted ideas of heaven and hell/good and bad from their predecessors - Pagan religions. Back up just a second. Good and evil existed before the Bible yes, but that doesn't make the Bible incorrect in what it says about good and evil. Firstly answer this: what is evil? And I'm not asking for examples or what you believe are and aren't evil acts. I'm asking for a definition of evil, characteristically speaking. What makes the concept of "evil" exist? The Bible is simply people taking these ideas of good and evil and making some stories out of them. And how do you come to such a conclusion?
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Post by MrNice on Apr 21, 2007 23:00:18 GMT -5
things that you would not want other people to do to you or to people you care about or to each other
the desire to fix things you see things that bother you and you want to change them and you think that in order to do it you need to create concepts and definitions
common sense
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Post by Sweet Pea on Apr 22, 2007 1:01:26 GMT -5
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Post by ridder on Apr 23, 2007 0:48:53 GMT -5
Shades of grey.
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Post by Tal on Apr 23, 2007 9:51:13 GMT -5
Good and evil existed long, long before the Bible did. In fact modern religions adopted ideas of heaven and hell/good and bad from their predecessors - Pagan religions. Back up just a second. Good and evil existed before the Bible yes, but that doesn't make the Bible incorrect in what it says about good and evil. Firstly answer this: what is evil? And I'm not asking for examples or what you believe are and aren't evil acts. I'm asking for a definition of evil, characteristically speaking. What makes the concept of "evil" exist? The Bible is no more correct or incorrect than any other document concerning ethics, philosophy, judicial practice etc etc...whether that document be espousing genocide or humanism, peace or war. It’s all the opinion of whoever wrote the documents, shaped by their circumstances and society (IMO). Therefore any definition of evil will be based on some kind of opinion and can't be universal. Generally, evil seems to based on what we like or dislike, with actions, people or places we distaste labelled as evil. It makes life simpler when we can use these black and white terms to separate what we like (and think others should also like) from what we dislike (and would prefer others disliked). Whether this can be related to basic biological concepts, and individual preservation, I don't know, but I expect so. Evil is generally reserved for things that we deem dangerous, unexplainable, not geared towards procreation, conducive to social upheaval etc. It would make sense that when we use the term, we have some subconscious survival instinct at work, but I don't claim to have any hard scientific proof for this. So, to answer your question (IMO) there's no single definition for 'evil'. It's just a long-held concept stemming from our ancestral origins. The Bible is simply people taking these ideas of good and evil and making some stories out of them. And how do you come to such a conclusion? [/quote] Well IMO the Bible is a selection of stories, with varying degrees of historical accuracy. They may preach ethical values, but these are not universal values for the reasons stated above, so they utilise a subjective 'good' and 'evil', which may not be applicable today. Therefore we shouldn't feel obliged to consider them a basis for the ethical values our modern societies adhere to.
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Post by Orionation on Apr 25, 2007 21:35:21 GMT -5
The Bible is no more correct or incorrect than any other document concerning ethics, philosophy, judicial practice etc etc...whether that document be espousing genocide or humanism, peace or war. It’s all the opinion of whoever wrote the documents, shaped by their circumstances and society (IMO). Therefore any definition of evil will be based on some kind of opinion and can't be universal. Generally, evil seems to based on what we like or dislike, with actions, people or places we distaste labelled as evil. It makes life simpler when we can use these black and white terms to separate what we like (and think others should also like) from what we dislike (and would prefer others disliked). Whether this can be related to basic biological concepts, and individual preservation, I don't know, but I expect so. Evil is generally reserved for things that we deem dangerous, unexplainable, not geared towards procreation, conducive to social upheaval etc. It would make sense that when we use the term, we have some subconscious survival instinct at work, but I don't claim to have any hard scientific proof for this. So, to answer your question (IMO) there's no single definition for 'evil'. It's just a long-held concept stemming from our ancestral origins. I see, and I know you just say in your opinion, but still I'm just curious where you come to that conclusion. I mean, just out of curiosity is all, what influences you to believe this as a personal preference? I guess I'm just asking if this is simply the view you've thought up that you're most comfortable with or if you've used some kind of reasoning to come to this conslusion, which you may have answered already, just clarifying. Well IMO the Bible is a selection of stories, with varying degrees of historical accuracy. They may preach ethical values, but these are not universal values for the reasons stated above, so they utilise a subjective 'good' and 'evil', which may not be applicable today. Therefore we shouldn't feel obliged to consider them a basis for the ethical values our modern societies adhere to. Ok, I'm just curious of one thing though. If there is no universal basis for ethical values and morality, then how do we draw a line between what's good and bad? In other words, if there's no universal moral standard, does that not imply that each person could have their own relative idea of what good and evil is? And if that is the case, then would Hitler be evil if in his mind he thought that for whatever reason it was good to kill all those people?
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Post by Orionation on Apr 25, 2007 21:40:10 GMT -5
things that you would not want other people to do to you or to people you care about or to each other the desire to fix things you see things that bother you and you want to change them and you think that in order to do it you need to create concepts and definitions Ok, so would you agree then that a good definition for evil could be that it is that which falls short of 'goodness'? In other words, look at coldness and shadows for example. Neither are actual substances or "things" that exist, rather, they are the absence of heat or light. So similarly would you agree then that "evil" is the absense of "good"?
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Post by MrNice on Apr 25, 2007 21:56:19 GMT -5
no
yes
no
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Post by Orionation on Apr 25, 2007 21:59:02 GMT -5
...and your reasoning? lol
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Post by MrNice on Apr 25, 2007 22:00:03 GMT -5
usually people regard things that cause pain and suffering as evil that is the universal basis
in his mind he wouldn't be evil
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Post by Orionation on Apr 25, 2007 22:04:22 GMT -5
Ok, and how is that not the absence of good?
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Post by MrNice on Apr 25, 2007 22:14:53 GMT -5
I think alot of answers to your questions can be found in the book by richard dawkins called the god delusion. i have not read it, but i gather these are exactly the kinds of questions he addresses.
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