justice system/punishment

[deadendphilosopher]

My friend and I were debating about what kind of system should be in place for people who intentionally break the law / take away the rights of others. I will say each of our viewpoints later, but what do people here think?

[dog]

deadendphilosopher said:

My friend and I were debating about what kind of system should be in place for people who intentionally break the law / take away the rights of others. I will say each of our viewpoints later, but what do people here think?

Well, i think that really depends on the types of law being broken.

[MrNice]

this is a very hard question
it all depends on the possibilty of the person breaking the law (assuming the law is sound) can change
will punishment change this person?
will it make them even more violent?
do they deserve another chance?

the biggest benefit of imprisonment is getting them off the street so they won't do any more harm
but how much punishment helps the person in question, thats a very big question

[Tal]

Imprisonment for the most dangerous of people (murderers, rapists, some people with mental disorders that make them violent).

Community service or fines for almost anyone else. No point putting fraudsters or drug users in prison cells. It's a waste of space and money. Better to give them a slap on the wrist and access to rehabilitation if they need it and perhaps make more use of Anti-Social Behaviour Orders and electronic tagging (although I admit these methods are open to abuse by the state).

Rather than building more prisons and making more prisoners, I wish governments would focus on the factors that lead to crime, both economic and social. I guess though, being 'tough on crime' plays well with tabloids and the average voter, so it's politically expedient to keep the prison population on the rise... :/

[Paulinus]

I'd imprison offenders of violent crime at the very least just to keep them off the streets so they cant harm anyone else. But I do think that there are too many offenses like fraud for example where surely a better punishment can be found then stuffing them in prison.

What most annoys me about the justice system in this country is that you hear of people imprisoned for say not paying their council tax and then hear of some violent arse being let off with a nothing punishment.


As for the issue of rehabilitation I'm not sure where I stand on that. On one hand I'd like to think that people deserve another chance but on the other hand I don't hold too much faith in it so I'd rather they stay locked up.

[Naptaq]

In my view of it, the crime system would be well served to implement a recovery program, for those who are willing. Personally, I'd see an AA kind of group, based on the 12 steps as something that would be very useful, since it's been proven to work.

However, I would not make the recovery program manditory. The first step to recovery is accepting you have a problem. You can't force people to get better if they don't want to. And I'd filter those who choose a recovery program - I'd put them through a lie detector, and maybe some other tests too, because there's a big chance people in prison would lie about wanting to recover, to exploit the situation and escape. But I'd make no distinction between a serious and a mild offender, since there are cases where people who are in prison are actually innocent. Besides that, there are probably many cases of people who are sentenced to many years, even capital punishment, who honestly regret what they did and would be well served with this kind of program.

I'd also make some kind of part-time or even full time job opportunity avalible, that doesn't require leaving the recovering facility and would pay them. The money would go in their saving account and would be paid out to them only if they leave - after completing the recovery program. I'd set limits on what they can and can't do. And I'd also set rules and define what will get you back in prison and leave you without your saving account, if you break the rule.

After the recovery program is "finished", it would be tricky to prove that a person is really a better person, legally, so that we could release early, but I'm sure we'd figure out a way and then put it into law.

Since criminality is often a lifestyle it would also be tricky releasing them since all of their friends outside of prison are probably not saints either. So releasing them in a different part of country with no contact with previous friends would be well advised. The beginning period we'd have to check on them periodically, for law reasons and scietific purposes as well. (e.g. What's the success rate of the prison recovery program?)

They would probably have a the 'Criminals Anonymous' outside of prison as well. That's what alcoholics do with AA, even after they 'recover', because once you've been an alcoholic you can't drink again or you'll fall down the same path. That's why they call them selfs 'recovering alcoholics' and not 'recovered alcoholic, which is a subtle, but major difference. So a group like that, to 'recovering criminals', would be very useful, because of it's nature - it's very supportive, positive, uplifting..ect

The benefits of this kind of program would not just be seen financially, with early releases, but also socially. (e.g. the person gets a job and becomes a positive example, a contributor to society and an influence not just in economics and social life but also among recoviring criminals or offenders, who see him as an example of: "It can be done".)

[MrNice]

don't they review and let some people out for good behavior?

[Naptaq]

In 2000, 34 percent of all prison admissions were parole violators (Travis 2000). That means they make a 'mistake' 1 every 3 prisoners they release.

They can do better.


source: www.financeproject.org/Publications/helpingparentswithcriminalrecordsIN.htm

[MrNice]

They can do better.

what makes you think so?

[Naptaq]

Dec 18, 2008 13:28:30 GMT -5 MrNice said:

They can do better.

what makes you think so?

It's a bad precentege. With a recovery program, there would be less of that, but that's just my hypothesis.

[deadendphilosopher]

I like your idea for a recovery program Naptaq. In really hate our prison system, it's terribly dehumanizing. I think it only exacerbates the problem of crime. Of course we can't have dangerous people running around on the streets, but I think we could do a lot better with our system for detaining them. I think only a small portion of inmates are crazy psychopaths, and those that aren't should be given resources to learn to become productive members of society. I think most criminals, murderers, ect. are people who are hurting inside. They probably have terrible self esteem underneath everything. Prison environments seem to be specially designed to rip whatever shreds of self respect or individuality one has to pieces. If the message in prison is "you are bad and now you will suffer," how does this encourage a prisoner to take responsibility for his/her behavior? If inmates are not given the message that they have the potential for goodness, if they are not empowered to believe their lives can have meaning, and that they can redeem themselves and contribute to society, why would they bother to take responsibility for what they have done to land them in prison? On the contrary, the morbidly disrespectful environment of a prison probably spares most prisoners from fully confronting their misdeeds, because it sets itself up as the perfect target for prisoners to project their rage, hate, or other "negative" emotions onto. Instead of focusing on themselves and what they have done, prisoners can focus on what is being done to them. No wonder the re admittance rate to jails is so incredibly high.

[Naptaq]

Although some prisoners do something useful with their time, like education, writing, religion study, language study.. most don't do it because of, like deadendphilosopher said, the enviorment which is anything but supportive.

But hey it is what it is. It serves its basic purpose, which is to keep criminals off the streets, and when the time comes to give recovery programs a shot, they will.