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Post by Farouche on Dec 5, 2008 18:39:03 GMT -5
Naptaq --------------
So Washington State guverner supports a sign that basicly says religion "enslaves minds and hardens hearts." in a government buidling .. that next to a nativity scene. Great.
[...]
But apperently under the 'strict interpretation of law' and the 1st amandment, it's fine. Yeah right. So... in your opinion, the right to free speech should not extend to mild public criticism of your favorite people or institutions? Then you don't believe in free speech at all. Naptaq ---------------
Next thing you know there will be signs up on Martin Luther King Day that says "King ensaved minds and heartened hearts" or some variation therof, in a government building. That comparison makes no sense. Naptaq ------------
When hate speech is given the same value and consideration as truth, society goes down the tubes. No, that is not hate speech. It's not hate speech to publicly criticize religion. Hate speech would be putting up a sign saying "Christians are subhuman monsters who are responsible for all evil in the world, and everyone should take up arms right now and kill anyone who celebrates Christmas." See the difference? Naptaq ------------
reference to a Creator, with a capital C, and God, in the Declaration of Independence.. The only *two* references to God/a creator I'm aware of in the Declaration are used virtually synonymously with "nature." "the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them[...]" "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights[...]" And I'll just point out that our actual founding document, the Constitution, contains NO references to God or a creator, although it mentions Religion only to say that there can be no religious tests for public officials, and that Congress shall make no law respecting religion. |
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Post by Naptaq on Dec 5, 2008 18:42:50 GMT -5
Hate speech would be putting up a sign saying "Christians are subhuman monsters who are responsible for all evil in the world, and everyone should take up arms right now and kill anyone who celebrates Christmas." See the difference? No. |
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Post by Farouche on Dec 5, 2008 18:55:25 GMT -5
Naptaq ---------------
No. Then you don't believe in free speech. Period. Seeing as free speech is a fundamental right around which US law and culture is built, and in the spirit of this thread, I have to ask: does that mean you hate America?  |
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Post by Naptaq on Dec 5, 2008 19:02:41 GMT -5
Then you don't believe in free speech. Period. And believing that I don't believe in free speech is an expression of your free speech.  |
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Post by Farouche on Dec 5, 2008 19:17:08 GMT -5
Naptaq ------------
And believing that I don't believe in free speech is an expression of your free speech.
I'll assume you mean " saying" you don't believe in free speech. And yes, it is, and so is being able to publicly criticize religion. Speech that's limited only to criticism you deem inoffensive is NOT free speech. |
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Post by Naptaq on Dec 5, 2008 19:26:36 GMT -5
Religion is criticized all the time, and I don't have any beef with that.
But it's really grossly inappropriate to display such a religion hating sign, in a government building, next to a nativity scene.
I'll expect criticism of Martin Luther King to pop up next, on Martin Luther King day.. in a government building. But you know what? Even the guverner of Washington state would probably not allow it. And that's a restriction on free speech.
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Post by Farouche on Dec 5, 2008 20:02:03 GMT -5
Naptaq -------------
But it's really grossly inappropriate to display such a religion hating sign, in a government building, next to a nativity scene. Nope, that's just your personal, irrelevant opinion. Just because you don't like it, or just because it's next to a public religious display does not make it "hate speech." If you think it is, then you don't understand what hate speech is. Personally I think it's more "grossly inappropriate" to have a big bold nativity scene next to a government building, than to have a mild criticism of religion on a government building that someone stuck a nativity seen next to. Naptaq -----------------
I'll expect criticism of Martin Luther King to pop up next, on Martin Luther King day.. in a government building. That is still a silly analogy. Repeating it doesn't help. |
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Post by Naptaq on Dec 5, 2008 20:12:04 GMT -5
It's a federal holiday - it would be weird not to have the christmas tree and the nativity scene up, in a government building.
They can try to repeal the holiday, if they dare. But last I checked most Americans consider themselfs Christian, and/or believe in God.
Ultimately I think this governer will probably not get elected again, because offending most Americans is a political suicide.
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Post by Sweet Pea on Dec 5, 2008 20:44:03 GMT -5
It's a federal holiday - it would be weird not to have the christmas tree and the nativity scene up, in a government building. They can try to repeal the holiday, if they dare. But last I checked most Americans consider themselfs Christian, and/or believe in God. Ultimately I think this governer will probably not get elected again, because offending most Americans is a political suicide. i consider myself christian, but i'm not at all offended. nor do i think it would be weird not to have christmas decorations up in a government building cuz this is america and we have separation of church and state...for good reason. in fact, i would prefer my government buildings to be completely sans religious displays of any kind. not even all christians agree on everything, in case you haven't noticed. |
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Post by Naptaq on Dec 5, 2008 20:51:28 GMT -5
There are many branches of Christianity, so Christians are bound to disagree with each other just on that. Within that you have different political views and all of that, but I think it's safe to say that most Christiants are offended by this, because of the context (government building - next to a nativity scene - guverner allowed it - governer a Catholic). By the way, do you go to Church every Sunday, Sweet Pea?  |
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Post by Sweet Pea on Dec 5, 2008 21:06:18 GMT -5
There are many branches of Christianity, so Christians are bound to disagree with each other just on that. Within that you have different political views and all of that, but I think it's safe to say that most Christiants are offended by this, because of the context (government building - next to a nativity scene - guverner allowed it - governer a Catholic). By the way, do you go to Church every Sunday, Sweet Pea? no, i do not. i haven't been fortunate enough to find a church home i feel comfortable with which provides child care for autistic children during services. |
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Post by Naptaq on Dec 5, 2008 21:10:38 GMT -5
no, i do not. i haven't been fortunate enough to find a church home i feel comfortable with which provides child care for autistic children during services. Okay. |
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Post by nelo on Dec 5, 2008 21:14:27 GMT -5
The church I used to go to had a side room for children but it was generally to keep the noisy ones in.
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