The USA presidential election 2008

[Naptaq]

As some of you may know I was a Ron Paul supporter a year ago, but then I changed my mind because I don't think just walking out of Iraq will do anyone any good.

That said, they apperently set a timetable for troops withdrawal for 2011. So the Iraq troop surge was successful after all. We'll see what happens. The cost of the Iraq war was great, no doubt about it, but it's important to not let those Jihadists, "Holy" War- kinda guys to get their hands on oil, because that means money and potentially developing nukes. Which, of course, is bad news for the whole world, because, I think, the first thing they'd do is whipe Israel out of the face of the planet.

What got me writing this in the first place is McCain's vice president pick Sarah Palin, which I think is an awesome pick. A week or two ago I found her through YouTube and I thought it was gonna be a long shot for her to be VP, but here we are!

This is one of the many videos of her already on YouTube:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh-lW2opLyQ

I think Obama would win this easy, if it weren't for his past assosiations. I don't know if you follow this but Obama's church to which he was going for almost 20 years has this pastor called Jeremiah Wright, which is very fond of anti-American rethoric. Obama has since resigned from the church and basily threw him under the bus. Now, I don't know if this hate pastor's always been like this, but here's just a taste:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M-kD0QdRJk

I think Obama's a reasonable man and is not hateful. After all, he's endorsed by Oprah, which I like a lot.

Universal health care is a do-gooder socialist idea, that, in my view of it, is questionable. It's either you pay for your health care, or you pay it through your taxes, which will probably be more expencive since you're paying for other people who have no income. Very Robin Hood like..

I know in Europe a lot of contries have basic health care provided by the government and paid by taxes and you pay everything else that the government doesn't provide for. Maybe Obama will go towards something like that.

It might be a first time that America is adopting something that's America. Usually countries adopt american models because they work best.

Bottom line is, somebody's going to pay for healthcare.

The argument of pro-universal healthcare can be basicly summed up into a post I once read

"Frankly, I think that Christian conservative is an oxymoron because Jesus asked us to take care of the poor. Hardly the message of today's conservative political movement IMHO."

But the 'take care' interpretation is a slippery slope. Should houses be provided too? Obviously the poor need food, so we should provide it for them. Furniture? Done.

I think there has to be a right balance between the masculine 'You get what you work for' and the more feminine 'We'll take care of you [because you can't take care of yourself]'

Obviously USA has welfare and food banks and stuff like that, which greatly help people who've lost their job or just can't get a job. But that can be abused. I know for a fact that welfare system is abused all over the world. People working side [undocumented] jobs and stuff like that. It happens everywhere.

I think too much to the left is really bad. Now I know quite a lot of people that said "Oh in socialism things were better". (Oh a little back story, I was born in SFRY) You had a guarenteed job, the pay was shit, but hey you didn't have to worry about it because you relied on the government to do everything for you.

Socialism doesn't promote growth, it's restrictive and capitalism is better in almost every way. One has a lot more opportunities in capitalism, and great people thrive and then become philantropists, like Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Andrew Carnegie, Oprah Winfrey ect.

I don't think being pro-choise or pro-life is all that important, because, I think, it'll still be up to individual states to decide anyway.

Drill in Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, for God's sake! You can't rely on these arabic countries to provide oil, when all they care about is money.

Socialistic tendencies discussed:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfR1g9q75KM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5o9_Csh3ss

I admit my bias, because I like McCain's policies better but Obama's ok too. And it's not like McCain will cancel all welfare, or that Obama will buy everyone a car and then lead the country into socialism. McCain is basicly less taxes, less government, tough US policy towards potential 'nukers', and Obama's more like "oh let's talk to them" and big government, a lot more taxes, expanded government, univeral health care.. Some ideas of socialism. And every US citizen will have to pay for it.

The way I see it, you appreciate something more if you work for it, rather than have it hand it out to you. Critisizing conservatives because they don't take care of the poor, is, I guess, a somewhat valid point, but then again, little taxes enable that very person to become an employed person and eventually a money-making machine, if he's inclined to do so.

Anyway this election has turned out to be very interesting: A black candidate who's a media darling vs. an old prisoner of war veteran & a hot conservative female as a vice president. I mean, what more do you want? ;D

What are your thoughts on this election?

[airburst]

[Sweet Pea]

i'm 100% anti-war and can't support either candidate. what the usa is doing in the world is imperialism under the guise of 'helping' people. it's very, very wrong.

[Naptaq]

Aug 29, 2008 20:45:33 GMT -5 Sweet Pea said:

i'm 100% anti-war and can't support either candidate. what the usa is doing in the world is imperialism under the guise of 'helping' people. it's very, very wrong.

Is Iraq becoming a US state? A colony? No, they're gonna move out after spending billions on rebuilding and helping Iraq.

I bet a lot of these anti-terrorism fighting views will change if Obama gets elected and there's another huge terrorist attack. What is he gonna do? Talk to them?

[Sweet Pea]

Aug 30, 2008 3:04:07 GMT -5 Naptaq said:

Aug 29, 2008 20:45:33 GMT -5 Sweet Pea said:

i'm 100% anti-war and can't support either candidate. what the usa is doing in the world is imperialism under the guise of 'helping' people. it's very, very wrong.

Is Iraq becoming a US state? A colony? No, they're gonna move out after spending billions on rebuilding and helping Iraq.

I bet a lot of these anti-terrorism fighting views will change if Obama gets elected and there's another huge terrorist attack. What is he gonna do? Talk to them?

the usa unleashes the roving 'multi-national' corporate dogs to go into a territory, exploit its people and resources, enrich themselves beyond imagination, and all the while the american taxpayer is exploited to put expensive bandaids on the damage for appearance's sake. the media puts a 'positive spin' on it with their unsubstantiated lies, but its a form of new imperialism, and the end result hasn't changed - the decimation of the culture and environment, as well as the subjugation of the people.

[Naptaq]

The media is also the internet, where you get the information from. So anybody can be subjected to fallacious propagandas that have nothing to do with reality. So, my point is that even if one doesn't even have a TV, he or she is bound to be subjected with dishonest stories. The media has become our parent.

America is losing money in these wars trying to help these people. Nobody is enriched by these wars. There's no proof.


Oh well, I think a lot of people won't take terrorism seriously until it blows up a bomb nerby, but then it might be too late. Nuclear weapons will be a major problem. That's just common sense.

By analogy you don't let a monkey near a loaded gun.

[Sweet Pea]

Aug 30, 2008 6:10:27 GMT -5 Naptaq said:

The media is also the internet, where you get the information from. So anybody can be subjected to fallacious propagandas that have nothing to do with reality. So, my point is that even if one doesn't even have a TV, he or she is bound to be subjected with dishonest stories. The media has become our parent.

America is losing money in these wars trying to help these people. Nobody is enriched by these wars. There's no proof.


Oh well, I think a lot of people won't take terrorism seriously until it blows up a bomb nerby, but then it might be too late. Nuclear weapons will be a major problem. That's just common sense.

By analogy you don't let a monkey near a loaded gun.

it doesn't matter what media you're exposed to if you're examining the facts - who's getting rich?

[Naptaq]

it doesn't matter what media you're exposed to if you're examining the facts - who's getting rich?

It does matter. Don't give me the "oh it doesn't matter what I watch, It's just facts." Oh really? I have friends claiming that 9/11 is an inside job, and to them it's a fact. Surley they didn't get that by watching CNN. They went Alex Jones. It matters mucho mucho what media you're exposed to.

Oprah Winfrey is getting rich, yes? Warren Buffet. The arabic guys who own oil. Just about anyone in the oil business. That's why America needs to drill in Alaska and not rely on those bastards who don't care about America one bit.

[Sweet Pea]

Aug 30, 2008 6:40:07 GMT -5 Naptaq said:

it doesn't matter what media you're exposed to if you're examining the facts - who's getting rich?

It does matter. Don't give me the "oh it doesn't matter what I watch, It's just facts." Oh really? I have friends claiming that 9/11 is an inside job, and to them it's a fact. Surley they didn't get that by watching CNN. They went Alex Jones. It matters mucho mucho what media you're exposed to.

Oprah Winfrey is getting rich, yes? Warren Buffet. The arabic guys who own oil. Just about anyone in the oil business. That's why America needs to drill in Alaska and not rely on those bastards who don't care about America one bit.

oh yeah, go drill up alaska and leave nothing but slag and dead creatures everywhere. good idea.

if you really want the answers, you don't depend on the news reports at all. you follow the money. where does the money being made in the gulf end up? there's your answer.

[Naptaq]

Aug 30, 2008 11:37:03 GMT -5 Sweet Pea said:

oh yeah, go drill up alaska and leave nothing but slag and dead creatures everywhere. good idea.

That's just untrue. I sense some enviormental paranoia. It would barely affect the nature. The footprint of the area that they would explore in ANWR is smaller than the LAX airport.

I think the biggest danager is the enviormentalists, who prevent growth and don't care about the economy at all.

My source is the Alaskan governor:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMC_XqdFYe0

if you really want the answers, you don't depend on the news reports at all. you follow the money. where does the money being made in the gulf end up? there's your answer.

Why don't you spell it out for me? Because I don't know where you're going with this.

Nobody knows what happens in the world without the media. Be it newspapers, TV or obscure websites or what have you. Even for the so called facts. We depend on media. Without the media we'd be back in the 16th century. Clueless.

[Sweet Pea]

Aug 30, 2008 14:42:09 GMT -5 Naptaq said:

Aug 30, 2008 11:37:03 GMT -5 Sweet Pea said:

oh yeah, go drill up alaska and leave nothing but slag and dead creatures everywhere. good idea.

That's just untrue. I sense some enviormental paranoia. It would barely affect the nature. The footprint of the area that they would explore in ANWR is smaller than the LAX airport.

I think the biggest danager is the enviormentalists, who prevent growth and don't care about the economy at all.

My source is the Alaskan governor:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMC_XqdFYe0

if you really want the answers, you don't depend on the news reports at all. you follow the money. where does the money being made in the gulf end up? there's your answer.

Why don't you spell it out for me? Because I don't know where you're going with this.

Nobody knows what happens in the world without the media. Be it newspapers, TV or obscure websites or what have you. Even for the so called facts. We depend on media. Without the media we'd be back in the 16th century. Clueless.

lmao, you are totally contradicting yourself, ya know.

hey, do your own homework. the information is out there. go find it. trace the money and find out who's in control of what's going on in the gulf. that's a challenge.

btw, in my opinion it's a fad these days to slam the internet as a source of information. however, it's really the last vestige of free speech around. at least on the internet anyone and everyone can speak and be heard. try getting anything you have to say on the radio or television...yeah, right.

[Naptaq]

Aug 30, 2008 15:05:35 GMT -5 Sweet Pea said:

lmao, you are totally contradicting yourself, ya know.

Where? I don't know about that, what I'm saying is we're all exposed to the media. The intepretation of facts by far left loons is vastly different than someone without Marxist leanings.

A lot of times it's not about facts, it's about intepritation of facts. A Bush hater will be quick to link tripping on a stair with incompitence. And this distortion is common on the internet. But who doesn't trip? Especially a man with the toughest job in the world...

hey, do your own homework. the information is out there. go find it. trace the money and find out who's in control of what's going on in the gulf. that's a challenge.

btw, in my opinion it's a fad these days to slam the internet as a source of information. however, it's really the last vestige of free speech around. at least on the internet anyone and everyone can speak and be heard. try getting anything you have to say on the radio or television...yeah, right.

Not all the internet is bad. But it's tough out here. Lot's of fallacious stuff floating around.

I'm not inclined to follow up on your offer to find those websites. I see you're very hesitant to share your views. I aksed you to spell it out for me and you're not. OK.

[Sweet Pea]

Aug 30, 2008 15:37:01 GMT -5 Naptaq said:

Aug 30, 2008 15:05:35 GMT -5 Sweet Pea said:

lmao, you are totally contradicting yourself, ya know.

Where? I don't know about that, what I'm saying is we're all exposed to the media. The intepretation of facts by far left loons is vastly different than someone without Marxist leanings.

A lot of times it's not about facts, it's about intepritation of facts. A Bush hater will be quick to link tripping on a stair with incompitence. And this distortion is common on the internet. But who doesn't trip? Especially a man with the toughest job in the world...

hey, do your own homework. the information is out there. go find it. trace the money and find out who's in control of what's going on in the gulf. that's a challenge.

btw, in my opinion it's a fad these days to slam the internet as a source of information. however, it's really the last vestige of free speech around. at least on the internet anyone and everyone can speak and be heard. try getting anything you have to say on the radio or television...yeah, right.

Not all the internet is bad. But it's tough out here. Lot's of fallacious stuff floating around.

I'm not inclined to follow up on your offer to find those websites. I see you're very hesitant to share your views. I aksed you to spell it out for me and you're not. OK.

as long as we've both frequented this board, you should know one thing i'm not is hesitant to share my views. regardless, there is no website out there that is the end all and be all, as far as i'm concerned. my opinions are based not just on some website, but on my life experience and the patterns i've observed. i don't spoon feed opinions to anyone, not even my children. i try to get them to think critically, and to be ready to challenge the prevailing opinions in their quest for the truth if need be.

[Naptaq]

Aug 30, 2008 21:55:26 GMT -5 Sweet Pea said:

as long as we've both frequented this board, you should know one thing i'm not is hesitant to share my views. regardless, there is no website out there that is the end all and be all, as far as i'm concerned. my opinions are based not just on some website, but on my life experience and the patterns i've observed. i don't spoon feed opinions to anyone, not even my children. i try to get them to think critically, and to be ready to challenge the prevailing opinions in their quest for the truth if need be.

Well if it's one thing I've obsereved is that age and experience doesn't make one right. Just look at the socialist George Soros who's damaging your country and he's almost 80 years old.

I know you don't spoon feed opinions on anyone I respect that. I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from.

Basicly you think that a small elite who owns oil started this war because they want more oil. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Alas, I don't buy that for one second. The cost of war everyday is so great that that just isn't possible.

If that imaginary elite really existed, then I'd think we'd see drilling in ANWR 10 years ago..

[Sweet Pea]

Aug 31, 2008 7:04:33 GMT -5 Naptaq said:

Aug 30, 2008 21:55:26 GMT -5 Sweet Pea said:

as long as we've both frequented this board, you should know one thing i'm not is hesitant to share my views. regardless, there is no website out there that is the end all and be all, as far as i'm concerned. my opinions are based not just on some website, but on my life experience and the patterns i've observed. i don't spoon feed opinions to anyone, not even my children. i try to get them to think critically, and to be ready to challenge the prevailing opinions in their quest for the truth if need be.

Well if it's one thing I've obsereved is that age and experience doesn't make one right. Just look at the socialist George Soros who's damaging your country and he's almost 80 years old.

I know you don't spoon feed opinions on anyone I respect that. I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from.

Basicly you think that a small elite who owns oil started this war because they want more oil. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Alas, I don't buy that for one second. The cost of war everyday is so great that that just isn't possible.

If that imaginary elite really existed, then I'd think we'd see drilling in ANWR 10 years ago..

well, nap, oil is obviously a prize in this war...but i think it's alot more complicated than that. there are hundreds of defense contractors throughout the world that make trillions of dollars from the american war machine. the top ten defense contractors made almost 200 billion in 2007 alone. the war in iraq, only one of the global conflicts we're pouring money into, is estimated to cost us at least 3 trillion dollars. the US economy is foundering. we can't afford this military spending. by declaring the 'war on terrorism', bush opened the nation's pocket book and accelerated defense spending. in my opinion, a gullible public makes this sort of thing possible. living in a 'free society' doesn't mean you're free to ignore what your public officials are up to. that's what i feel is going on, and that's what i feel has got to stop. even if you don't believe war is immoral as i do, surely you believe in government accountability.