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Post by skyhint on Sept 24, 2008 19:59:51 GMT -5
It seems odd to me that you would find white people like that Sweet Pea. I would never want to talk about race in a public place because someone might just happen to be walking by who would be upset by what you say. It is a really sensitive subject for a lot of people. Some people get uncomfortable when you even mention skin tone. yes, i know. very uncomfortable. and maybe...just maybe... that's because we're not supposed to talk about it...shhhhhhhhh. we can talk endlessly about hair color, eye color...no problem. but bring up the topic of skin color in any way shape or form, and people get uncomfortable. so are you saying that you have found it comfortable to talk to white people about racial issues when you're alone in a private place? you never get a negative reaction? or has it just never been discussed under any circumstances? i've found that white people now often communicate in code about what race or color a person is (which is kinda weird). they're not very direct at all unless they're out and out flaming bigots. i've also known interracial couples who wouldn't talk about race and it ended up destroying their relationships. having alot of unexpressed subtext in a relationship about anything is not a good thing. i think it's hard to really know a person if you're so busy ignoring the elephant in the room that you can't find out who they are, what their experience has been, and what makes them tick. and i think for an interracial (or multi-colored or what- have-you) relationship to work, you have to be able to talk about this and share experiences. the odds are against any relationship making it, and adding the crap interracial couples confront in daily life on top of it means you'd better have a strong relationship. i met someone recently who has brown skin, and he told me that some of his siblings are white. i'd like to know how he feels about that, and what his experience has been. i don't feel i'll ever really know who he is unless i know that as well as all the rest of the things about him. of course, i tend to delve pretty deeply into people's psyche, and some people just aren't into that, lol. but i am definitely leaning towards thinking this guy is right about the necessity of being able to talk amongst ourselves about this subject. i think we have to openly acknowledge everything that's going on, or we're just enabling the status quo to continue. Ya if the subject came up in conversation with someone I knew very well and who knew me very well I'd feel free to discuss race. And me and my Chinese boyfriend talk about race too. (Mostly just to make jokes at eachother's expense) but if I have any questions about anything Chinese I feel free to ask it. |
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Post by Sweet Pea on Sept 25, 2008 0:29:05 GMT -5
i found it pretty compelling when he pointed out that for all the complaining whites have done about reverse discrimination and how other races have an advantage now, no one rushes to change their skin color or tries to 'pass' as non-white. none...zilch...zippedy do dah. The fake tan industry is sooo unsuccessful. No white person ever buys 'non-white' music. And i've never heard a white people using slang that's 'non-white'.  and what's different about those things? besides a white person with a fake tan is still white and it's obvious to everyone, it doesn't change your privileged status in society. they're temporary changes that are reversible or can be put to the side in certain circumstances, such as applying for a job. turn off the hip hop, drop the slang, and you're instantly white. it's not so easy to change dark skin to white. |
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Post by Sweet Pea on Sept 25, 2008 0:37:03 GMT -5
yes, i know. very uncomfortable. and maybe...just maybe... that's because we're not supposed to talk about it...shhhhhhhhh. we can talk endlessly about hair color, eye color...no problem. but bring up the topic of skin color in any way shape or form, and people get uncomfortable. so are you saying that you have found it comfortable to talk to white people about racial issues when you're alone in a private place? you never get a negative reaction? or has it just never been discussed under any circumstances? i've found that white people now often communicate in code about what race or color a person is (which is kinda weird). they're not very direct at all unless they're out and out flaming bigots. i've also known interracial couples who wouldn't talk about race and it ended up destroying their relationships. having alot of unexpressed subtext in a relationship about anything is not a good thing. i think it's hard to really know a person if you're so busy ignoring the elephant in the room that you can't find out who they are, what their experience has been, and what makes them tick. and i think for an interracial (or multi-colored or what- have-you) relationship to work, you have to be able to talk about this and share experiences. the odds are against any relationship making it, and adding the crap interracial couples confront in daily life on top of it means you'd better have a strong relationship. i met someone recently who has brown skin, and he told me that some of his siblings are white. i'd like to know how he feels about that, and what his experience has been. i don't feel i'll ever really know who he is unless i know that as well as all the rest of the things about him. of course, i tend to delve pretty deeply into people's psyche, and some people just aren't into that, lol. but i am definitely leaning towards thinking this guy is right about the necessity of being able to talk amongst ourselves about this subject. i think we have to openly acknowledge everything that's going on, or we're just enabling the status quo to continue. Ya if the subject came up in conversation with someone I knew very well and who knew me very well I'd feel free to discuss race. And me and my Chinese boyfriend talk about race too. (Mostly just to make jokes at eachother's expense) but if I have any questions about anything Chinese I feel free to ask it. hmmm...well, you said that you would talk about it when alone with a friend, not that you actually have i noticed. that's good that you and your bf feel comfortable talking about it. there's a counseling book that has an interesting discussion on this subject: “Helping professionals who experience discomfort when faced with racial and ethnic differences often possess an ethnic identity that is conflicted or negative (Pinderhughes, 1989) and frequently deny the importance of difference as a way of distancing from their own negative reactions. A common white assumption is that it is impolite to talk about race, and a colorblind approach demonstrates their "goodness" or "niceness" (Killian, 2001). Therapists must also explore their own attitudes and beliefs about persons of color and interracial couples and families. Unexamined assumptions, myths and stereotypes about interracial unions and persons of color must be addressed if clinical interventions are to be therapeutic (Davidson, 1992).“ From Clinical Issues with Interracial Couples by Thomas, Karis & Wetchler (btw, is it just me or was there an underlying assumption that the therapist would be white?) |
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gaia
New Member
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Post by gaia on Sept 25, 2008 18:32:42 GMT -5
and what's different about those things? besides a white person with a fake tan is still white and it's obvious to everyone, it doesn't change your privileged status in society. they're temporary changes that are reversible or can be put to the side in certain circumstances, such as applying for a job. turn off the hip hop, drop the slang, and you're instantly white. it's not so easy to change dark skin to white. I know people who don't "turn off the hip hop and become instantly white" because they think it will do them favours. They act like it the whole time and don't care. Do you really think people are racist when they are looking for employees? I'm curious, because I personally think there is a quota to fill in some companys anyway. People might choose not to hire white people just to prove a point that they are "equal opportunities". As a token gesture. Maybe there is something in it after all. In spite of the fact that my family are (white) English as far back as I can trace, my full name doesn't sound very English at all. On paper, my name could belong to a 'non-white person'. I'm not getting any luck finding a job. Could it be that? OR could it be that my CV is a pile of wank? I think it's too easy to play the race card when things don't go right. It's much more difficult to look at your own actions and admit you might not be doing something right. |
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Post by Astroruss on Sept 25, 2008 19:54:12 GMT -5
Gaia, you're right about many companies having quotas to fill when it comes to hiring employees. This too often can work against a company too. In my own workplace, most of the employees there are black, the good ones and the lazy, useless ones.  But I've found race isn't so much an issue with them as opposed to age. The older employees work better and more than the younger ones, except when it comes to heavy lifting all the time. The older employees seem to be more productive and helpful than the young ones. This is odd because all I hear nowadays is how old people experience job discrimination because of their age.  |
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Post by Sweet Pea on Sept 25, 2008 20:34:45 GMT -5
and what's different about those things? besides a white person with a fake tan is still white and it's obvious to everyone, it doesn't change your privileged status in society. they're temporary changes that are reversible or can be put to the side in certain circumstances, such as applying for a job. turn off the hip hop, drop the slang, and you're instantly white. it's not so easy to change dark skin to white. I know people who don't "turn off the hip hop and become instantly white" because they think it will do them favours. They act like it the whole time and don't care. Do you really think people are racist when they are looking for employees? I'm curious, because I personally think there is a quota to fill in some companys anyway. People might choose not to hire white people just to prove a point that they are "equal opportunities". As a token gesture. Maybe there is something in it after all. In spite of the fact that my family are (white) English as far back as I can trace, my full name doesn't sound very English at all. On paper, my name could belong to a 'non-white person'. I'm not getting any luck finding a job. Could it be that? OR could it be that my CV is a pile of wank? I think it's too easy to play the race card when things don't go right. It's much more difficult to look at your own actions and admit you might not be doing something right. i actually have never had anyone 'play the race card' around me, i have just observed things that indicate to me that skin color really can work against someone in our society. but i don't think that every white hiring manager disciminates against people of other races, colors, ethinicities, etc. i know when i've done hiring i've only cared about who could do the job best. probably the best hiring decision i ever made was when i once hired a filipina lady for a payroll position i supervised. she was an excellent employee who could always be counted on to have her work done correctly and on time. she was a real sweet person too, who always went the extra mile to get along well with her co-workers in spite of the fact that she suffered with painful endometriosis. she was fabulous, and it certainly would have been a bad decision not to hire her because she had brown skin. |
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Post by pnoopiepnats on Sept 26, 2008 1:27:21 GMT -5
Skin color doesn't make a bit of difference to me either when I hire.
I find other races more discriminatory. For instance, you get an Indian in a position to hire and before you know it, the entire team is Indian.
This one guy where I work kept pressuring the boss to hire his friend's wife for our department. My boss asked me about her as I had been her direct supervisor.
I was very honest.
The type of job I do requires you to work on your own and figure things out for yourself 99% of the time.
The previous team I had supered was led by someone who was a micromanager. She hired people who simply follow directions and needed to be spoon fed their work.
So even though this person was good and nice and all that I couldn't recommend her for the job because of the fit. Nothing to do with her being Indian. Needless to say the other worker was ticked she didn't get hired.
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Post by Sweet Pea on Sept 28, 2008 23:53:37 GMT -5
I find other races more discriminatory. For instance, you get an Indian in a position to hire and before you know it, the entire team is Indian. This one guy where I work kept pressuring the boss to hire his friend's wife for our department. My boss asked me about her as I had been her direct supervisor. I was very honest. The type of job I do requires you to work on your own and figure things out for yourself 99% of the time. The previous team I had supered was led by someone who was a micromanager. She hired people who simply follow directions and needed to be spoon fed their work. So even though this person was good and nice and all that I couldn't recommend her for the job because of the fit. Nothing to do with her being Indian. Needless to say the other worker was ticked she didn't get hired. well, i certainly have never tried to represent the white race as the only one that experiences racist thoughts and motives. that would be incredibly unobservant and naive. but this thread is about white privilege not discrimination in all it's many forms. the hiring manager who hired the office team you mentioned was obviously the one responsible for the hiring decisions, not the people being hired. and even if the hiring manager was indian, i really can't be sure white people weren't offered the job, now can i? it's possible that white applicants found they'd be working for an indian boss and decided they didn't want the job after all. *shrug* i really don't know. maybe they're racist as hell, but nepotism rears its ugly head everywhere. i doubt indians have cornered the market on that one. i've experienced it often enough in offices dominated by whites. anyways, i saw an interesting article on what it's like to be multi-racial when i was at the library today. i like the idea that some multi-racial people are embracing all of their heritage and not allowing people to label them or cram them into a category on a form. This is who I am: Defining mixed-race identify |
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Post by Astroruss on Sept 30, 2008 20:34:38 GMT -5
Perhaps whites still have advantages where they are the majority of a regional demographic. Maybe in the countryside, they do. But around where I live, in the greater Houston area, nearly50% of the populace is non-white. That doesn't sound like a majority to me. More and more, skin color isn't so much an issue anymore. What I do notice down here more often than not is discrimination based on language and country of origin. The black and white people's consider themselves American, regardless of their different backgrounds, and do not trust Spanish speaking hispanics because their different language and their status as non-American citizens, many of them at least. The poor whites and blacks see these illegals as job threats. Even the legal resident Hispanics encounter hostility and closed doors from small business and industry down here.  Another thing that works against the Hispanics is their unwillingness to interact with other peoples in the community. This may be an exagerration, of course, but it is a problem constantly being brought up on news channels all the time by reporters. I sympathize with the Hispanics to a large extant; I've lived and worked around them all my life, speak their language to an extent, and do not fear them for their differences. But the illegal immigration problem is a serious one, and seems to be at the forefront of every TV story or news issue at night. |
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Post by madiocre on Sept 30, 2008 23:13:07 GMT -5
ok on topic but not quite on flow.
i think the issues with the whole discomfort about discussing race is that as a white person whenever it is discussed i know i feel like the finger is being pointed at me when i havn't done anything wrong . Also there are certains issues we face as white people they are nothing as bad as those who aren't is my guess but all the same we have our issues to talk abou tthem would make us wingers.
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Post by Sweet Pea on Oct 1, 2008 1:21:30 GMT -5
i think the issues with the whole discomfort about discussing race is that as a white person whenever it is discussed i know i feel like the finger is being pointed at me when i havn't done anything wrong . yeah, that's common. i usually hear this referred to as 'white guilt'. Also there are certains issues we face as white people they are nothing as bad as those who aren't is my guess but all the same we have our issues to talk abou tthem would make us wingers. sunburn is a real drag.  |
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Post by skyhint on Oct 1, 2008 17:52:28 GMT -5
sunburn is a real drag. mmmhmmm and people who don't understand blonde hair and think Im not a natural blonde because the hair closer to the roots is darker. |
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Post by Farouche on Oct 2, 2008 10:53:12 GMT -5
Long post, here, but nobody has to read it that isn't interested.  Jess ---------------------
i think the issues with the whole discomfort about discussing race is that as a white person whenever it is discussed i know i feel like the finger is being pointed at me when i havn't done anything wrong .
SweetPea --------------------------
yeah, that's common. i usually hear this referred to as 'white guilt'. I think "white guilt" is actually the feelings of culpability that makes whites feel that they are responsible, and sometimes causes them to overcompensate, isn't it? Ergo the accusation from some that whites want to vote for Obama to assuage their white guilt. I guess defensiveness is its own kind of guilt, but that's how I understood the term. I believe that the whole "you should be ashamed" angle is a wrong approach to race relations, anyway. People don't tend to learn very well when that finger of blame is saying there's something tainted about them personally because of what their relatives did or what society encouraged. Racism is a like a current in water: it's made up of actions, not individual particles, and I think that differentiation needs to be emphasized. The guy in the original video starts out "confessing" his ancestors' ownership of slaves--why? Let's talk about what needs to be done now; let's talk about race without accusations, implied or not. There's a lot of resentment there, but that's waning somewhat--and it needs to. Friction is great for making legal inroads as in the civil rights era, but the only way to effect the subtle social changes that will bring us the rest of the way is, if I may offer an opinion, to foster that sense of being in this together. That's not the same as "can't we all just get along?" We need to talk about race, and all the beneficiaries of White Privilege need to have a voice in this process along with everyone else. I read a blog once that, paraphrased, said that white inaction and ignorance of racial issues is inexcusable, and white action and talk on the subject is patronizing, but although, as the author fully acknowledged, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't, we as whites ought to be going out of our way to eliminate racism anyway, and should not go so far as to feel pride in taking action in the face of disdain, because we should have been doing it to begin with. If I'm not mistaken, studies have shown that this kind of negative reinforcement not only make the recipient feel bad, but it's not effective as a teaching tool. The best way to get through to people is said to be a combination of negative and positive reinforcement, so, condemning racism, but also acknowledging and appreciating sincere efforts to eradicate it. If a friend makes a comment with obvious racial overtones, and you don't let it pass without comment, that's not easy. But it's necessary, and that kind of courage, small as it may be, is still something to be proud of. To the original question, does White Privilege exist? The short answer is, yes. As I see it, the idea of White Privilege is only controversial because it’s often presented in a controversy-stirring manner. White Privilege exists in the way that Growing Up In A Two-Parent Household Privilege exists, or that Beauty Privilege, Tall Privilege, Male Privilege, Heterosexual Privilege, Judeo-Christian Privilege, or even Extrovert Privilege exist. There are infinitely many different physical and social realities that dictate what we each get out of life and how people judge and react to us, often in ways that are prejudicial and totally unfair. I think the importance of thinking about White Privilege in this context, as one problem among many, is often underestimated by social activists, who may be heavily or personally invested in and sensitive to a chosen set of issues (like White Privilege), and/or who may well have already given extensive consideration to the interdependence of human prejudices, such that they take the existence of other types of Privilege as given. But if you start the conversation on White Privilege with someone who hasn’t been introduced to the concept of Privilege in the broader sense, chances are that you are going to get a bad reaction. With just a little bit of explanation and a non-confrontational attitude, White Privilege isn’t a scary concept at all. My impression is that many social activists get tired of explaining the context, or they just don’t recognize that most people are really misunderstanding the issue, and not just being stubborn or dense. And there are some activists who have over-sensitized themselves to issues of race or gender or whatnot to the point that any reaction but full and immediate agreement is quickly interpreted as covert or even not-so-covert racist/sexist defensiveness from a guilty party. I’ve fallen victim to this "with us or agin' us" mindset briefly myself, when I started reading a lot of feminist blog posts about the sexism Hilary Clinton’s presidential bid brought to the surface. It got me worked up about the concept of Male Privilege, and I temporarily (for like, an hour) became hyper-vigilant to sexist behavior. I found myself rolling my eyes at the men in the blog comments, who either tended to seem like they didn’t “get it,” or who patronizingly professed their devotion to the feminist cause. Taking a step back, it became clear that stewing in resentment till everything short of the complete eradication of sexism or racism seems like an affront is just not worth it as an individual, and what's more, it's not effective in motivating change. Again, I think we’ve really got to foster this sense of “we’re in this together.” If a white person scoffs at the notion that racism is still a problem, instead of getting understandably angry at them, a blacktivist (love those portmanteaus) might rejoin with something more like, “oh definitely; did you not realize?” Because chances are good that the white person truly isn't aware. If a guy says he doesn’t see any sexism left in society, the womactivist (ok, that one is a fail) can give him some examples, potentially opening his eyes to the issue rather than getting visibly annoyed and inducing him to further retreat in defensiveness. As good as it may feel to get someone riled up, and as much as some may want to say "too bad" if it's uncomfortable being lectured at or talked down to, the deciding factor is that it just isn't effective, and to follow the anger is to ferment your own backlash down the road. Friendliness counts in making converts, and maybe that convert will be one who’ll stand up in his circle of friends and say, “didn’t you realize?” to them. |
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Post by Sweet Pea on Oct 2, 2008 19:14:32 GMT -5
wow, long post for sure, lol. yeah, she said she 'feels' the finger is being pointed at her. she didn't give any evidence that she actually was being accused by someone irl did she? so i think that would fall under the broad umbrella term 'white guilt'. (but no i'm not pointing the finger of blame at you, jess.) she did a good job of describing the kind of discomfort alot of white people do feel when the topic of racism comes up. white guilt is a fairly imprecise term which i've heard applied in a variety of ways. especially when it comes to politicians, some of whom like to think it's something experienced only by liberal whites. anyway, the idea is that you feel a sense of collective guilt or that you feel labeled as being guilty of racism by default...and that it inhibits you in certain situations. i thought the history of the speaker's family was interesting and contributed historical perspective to the subject. it honestly never occurred to me to wonder what advantages my family may have had through the generations because we were white. my great-great grandparents were immigrants, and being johnny-come-lately arrivals to the 'new world' probably experienced some discrimination themselves. especially the irish part of the family, as the irish were widely despised by many in those days. my great-grandparents and grandparents were iowa farmers, and owned their land. my parents abandoned that lifestyle, but they did grow up on farms owned by their parents. they weren't well off in the material sense, but they obviously had more advantages in life than, say, sharecroppers living in poverty. they never went hungry, and every generation of my family has had more education than the previous one. my parents both had a high school education, which is more than alot of people in their generation had. i think it's hard for me to get a thorough idea of the differences between what my family experienced and what other families experienced because the details are no longer known. but it did stimulate some thought on the subject. i know from things my parents said when i was growing up in their house that they and their forebears believed that whites were a superior race, despised people of other races, and believed they had to be 'kept in line' even if violence was necessary. they believed white people who married outside their race should be ostracized. i don't think anyone in my family was a slave owner, but i'm quite sure they exploited people from other races for cheap labor because i saw my dad do it in his business. this negative view of other races i was hearing from my parents was in contrast to the indian and eskimo kids i played with who lived near us, and the kids of all races i met and played with at school who seemed just fine to me...and pretty much the same as i was. i decided at an early age my parents were nuts, and didn't give much credence to anything they said about race (and alot of other things). but there wasn't much i could do about the fact that they wouldn't allow me to invite kids who weren't white to visit my house. they embarassed and humiliated me in front of my friends on a few occasions and i learned to not even ask. so my friendships with people of other races were confined to school. to resist would have meant getting the shit beaten out of me, of that much i'm sure. i thought of my parents as dinosaurs whose time had passed, and i thought once i got out from under their roof i'd put all that behind me. they're gone now, but unfortunately i've met quite a few people, some far younger than me, who feel the same way they did. so racism is hardly dead in this country. i've known racists from all demographic groups and all walks of life. i've even known racist hippies who would run around saying stuff like 'peace love and brotherhood, baby!' my theory is that people often feel the need to be 'better' than somebody. that way they don't feel like they're at the bottom of the heap, so to speak. they have a view of society that is striated by things like race, income, education. and they feel they're either looking down on others, or being looked down upon. at any rate, my experience has been that white privilege does exist, and that there are those in our society that want to see it persist. i'm not quite sure how that's ever supposed to change if people can't talk about it. and i think that was one of the points the speaker in the video was trying to make. he's saying we can unintentionally prolong the effects of our racist history by ignoring what's going on instead of acknowledging it. it's like the old saying - those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it (actually a quote from george santayana). it has happened, it is still happening, and by turning our backs and ignoring it, we allow it to persist. |
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Post by Sweet Pea on Nov 8, 2008 18:11:32 GMT -5
i just wanted to say (again) that it is so fucking annoying when other white people assume i'm going to be receptive to their racism and bigotry. what brought this up for me again was today a guy sent me this...thing. i cannot fucking believe people are circulating this kind of crap in this day and age.  are they ever gonna get over themselves? what would you do if someone sent this to you? it was titled 'potential problem'.  |
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But I've found race isn't so much an issue with them as opposed to age. The older employees work better and more than the younger ones, except when it comes to heavy lifting all the time. The older employees seem to be more productive and helpful than the young ones. This is odd because all I hear nowadays is how old people experience job discrimination because of their age. 
