Why do bad things happen to good people?

[wagnerr]

bodhi395 said:

feyish said:

chapter one is the creation story in a nutshell, giving a broad overview. then chapter 2 goes into a more detailed account. i don't see how that is a contradiction. i have read a lot of books where the author does this to help the reader understand something important.

whatever, we could debate the Bible until Armageddon. i believe in it, i don't care what some snobbish historians or scholars say. i've read the book for myself and found it to give very good directions in life.

Ok, if it works for you I have no problem. Just don't use it to discriminate against people or hate others who don't believe it. Thats where religion goes wrong, when it seperates people instead of bringing them together.

I agree with you completely on this, man. Which is why i would like to see all denominations of Christianity brought back together, along with the denominations of Islam.

Science and religion too, for that matter. I don't think they should be considered as mutually exclusive. Quite to the contrary, i think they both illuminate our understanding of the universe we live in.

[sushiboat]

People are responsible for their choices – what they do and what they don't. The more power you have, the more responsibility you have because what you choose is more likely to make a difference. A being with infinite power has infinite responsibility. A good and omnipotent Supreme Being is incompatible with the existence of evil, or even the existence of painful outcomes.

Remember the case of the college student in Las Vegas who saw his friend molesting a 7 year-old girl in a bathroom stall? He didn't stop his friend; he just turned around and left. His friend raped and murdered the girl. Then the two of them had fun for hours before the friend was arrested. If there is an omniscient God, he saw the whole thing and did not act to prevent it. An omniscient God is an accomplice in all the killings of little children and all the bad things that he could have prevented but did not.

Whatever excuse you make for God can also be made for the college student who did nothing to help the girl. If God had some higher purpose, then perhaps the student had faith that God knew what he was doing in not acting. If God respects the free will of child murderers, then perhaps the student was also respecting free will.

If you believe the Bible, God himself actively murdered lots of children. In the story of the great flood, only Noah's children escaped; all the other children were killed. In the story of Moses, God killed all the first-born children of the Egyptians. In various battles of the Canaan wars, God commands the Israelites to kill everyone, including children. And so on.

[Bodhi]

sushiboat said:

If you believe the Bible, God himself actively murdered lots of children. In the story of the great flood, only Noah's children escaped; all the other children were killed. In the story of Moses, God killed all the first-born children of the Egyptians. In various battles of the Canaan wars, God commands the Israelites to kill everyone, including children. And so on.

You are right, God did kill a whole lot of people in the Old Testament, including lots and lots of children. Most of these people were innocent, like the first born children of the Egyptians. My question is how can an all-loving God do this?

[Sigh]

wagnerr said:

To me, this whole website seems like a hollow empty criticism of a work that dates back two thousand years at least, maybe more, and that has been translated and re-translated until the words no longer mean what they originally were meant to mean.

So in other words, the modern bible has no meaning?

[wagnerr]

sigh said:

wagnerr said:

To me, this whole website seems like a hollow empty criticism of a work that dates back two thousand years at least, maybe more, and that has been translated and re-translated until the words no longer mean what they originally were meant to mean.

So in other words, the modern bible has no meaning?

No, i didn't say that. I merely say that the modern bible is poorly translated from the Greek, and even poorer from the old Hebrew.

I think that in the fifteen hundred years or so since the first English translations of the scriptures in the fifteenth century AD, the original meanings of all the letters and laws and prophecies and wisdom literature has been altered dramatically, without any intention of actually doing this.

For this reason, i like the New American Bible, for it's authors attempted to transcribe and translate from the oldest surviving editions of the scriptures, both from the OT and NT, so at least it's closer to the original content and context of the Jewish scribes and Latin and Greek apostles.

I only think that we should not take the Bible literally and at face value, that's all. Most of it is at least two millenia old, some of it three, and written by people who lived in a completely different world from us, and saw the universe with different eyes.

[Samantha]

sushiboat said:

People are responsible for their choices – what they do and what they don't. The more power you have, the more responsibility you have because what you choose is more likely to make a difference. A being with infinite power has infinite responsibility. A good and omnipotent Supreme Being is incompatible with the existence of evil, or even the existence of painful outcomes.

Remember the case of the college student in Las Vegas who saw his friend molesting a 7 year-old girl in a bathroom stall? He didn't stop his friend; he just turned around and left. His friend raped and murdered the girl. Then the two of them had fun for hours before the friend was arrested. If there is an omniscient God, he saw the whole thing and did not act to prevent it. An omniscient God is an accomplice in all the killings of little children and all the bad things that he could have prevented but did not.

Whatever excuse you make for God can also be made for the college student who did nothing to help the girl. If God had some higher purpose, then perhaps the student had faith that God knew what he was doing in not acting. If God respects the free will of child murderers, then perhaps the student was also respecting free will.

If you believe the Bible, God himself actively murdered lots of children. In the story of the great flood, only Noah's children escaped; all the other children were killed. In the story of Moses, God killed all the first-born children of the Egyptians. In various battles of the Canaan wars, God commands the Israelites to kill everyone, including children. And so on.

Indeed one of the things that most annoys me about religion (although I should add that there is alot of good things about it too) is that everything good gets put down to God but everything bad is either our fault or some horny guy. It's a cop out... but then I shouldn't expect anything else I guess.

Nor can God be fair if life is just a test. Saying life is a fair test is equivelant to examining school kids by giving some the answers while others get taken out the back by the teacher and beaten to death. What about mentally impaired people who can't even comprehend good and evil? Do they count or are they just decoration, some kind of existential tinsel.

Oh I will agree I don't know if there is a God or not. But I know if he does exist he is not fair. He is not all loving. Assuming he is all powerful anyway. If he were omnipotent he could make the universityverse however he wished. He could test us without the need for suffering. He chose evil, pain, suffering, injustice. He is responsible.

[feyish]

bodhi395 said:

feyish said:

chapter one is the creation story in a nutshell, giving a broad overview. then chapter 2 goes into a more detailed account. i don't see how that is a contradiction. i have read a lot of books where the author does this to help the reader understand something important.

whatever, we could debate the Bible until Armageddon. i believe in it, i don't care what some snobbish historians or scholars say. i've read the book for myself and found it to give very good directions in life.

Ok, if it works for you I have no problem. Just don't use it to discriminate against people or hate others who don't believe it. Thats where religion goes wrong, when it seperates people instead of bringing them together.

maybe a lot of religion has a bad track record, but don't assume every religious person, or the Bible, teaches hate. the Bible has helped me to understand people, and if it wasn't for my religion, i would probably be a complete hermit. while i know i am far from perfect, my religion has made me a better person, i've learned to care about other people and do my best to help them.

[wagnerr]

bodhi395 said:

sushiboat said:

If you believe the Bible, God himself actively murdered lots of children. In the story of the great flood, only Noah's children escaped; all the other children were killed. In the story of Moses, God killed all the first-born children of the Egyptians. In various battles of the Canaan wars, God commands the Israelites to kill everyone, including children. And so on.

You are right, God did kill a whole lot of people in the Old Testament, including lots and lots of children. Most of these people were innocent, like the first born children of the Egyptians. My question is how can an all-loving God do this?

You're forgetting something crucial about the Christian faith. God gave us free will, will to do what we want, when we want it. This means we can do good or evil, and the Christian God is not empowered to stop us.

[Bodhi]

wagnerr said:

bodhi395 said:

You are right, God did kill a whole lot of people in the Old Testament, including lots and lots of children. Most of these people were innocent, like the first born children of the Egyptians. My question is how can an all-loving God do this?

You're forgetting something crucial about the Christian faith. God gave us free will, will to do what we want, when we want it. This means we can do good or evil, and the Christian God is not empowered to stop us.

True, but my example wasn't of humans comitting evil, but God himself. In the story God kills all the first born sons himself, no humans involved. So how could an all-loving God do that?

[wagnerr]

bodhi395 said:

wagnerr said:

You're forgetting something crucial about the Christian faith. God gave us free will, will to do what we want, when we want it. This means we can do good or evil, and the Christian God is not empowered to stop us.

True, but my example wasn't of humans comitting evil, but God himself. In the story God kills all the first born sons himself, no humans involved. So how could an all-loving God do that?

Because this was the context that the Jews thought in. I am not explaining it, nor do i think it made much sense to write God like this. But it did make sense in the context of all othe dieties of the time period as well, such as the Hellenic Gods of Olympus and the Babylonian Gods.

One writes in the context of the present time period. Otherwise, no one will read it. Therefore, to portray the Hebrew God as this all loving and infinitely sympathetic and gentle figure would have been counter productive for the Jews, in the face of invasions from all sides at the time.

One does not worship a gentle, merciful God in this time period.

Only when Christianity first arose did the concept of the omnipotent creator change into a kind and merciful one. The early Christians preserved the old Jewish stories, but did not alter them. This was an ever evolving trend of divinity, and did no solidify with a bunch of Jewish scribes sitting down one day and write out what they thought was to be worshipped for three centuries to come. Even many Jews of today don't think like that.

[Bodhi]

wagnerr said:

bodhi395 said:

True, but my example wasn't of humans comitting evil, but God himself. In the story God kills all the first born sons himself, no humans involved. So how could an all-loving God do that?

Because this was the context that the Jews thought in. I am not explaining it, nor do i think it made much sense to write God like this. But it did make sense in the context of all othe dieties of the time period as well, such as the Hellenic Gods of Olympus and the Babylonian Gods.

One writes in the context of the present time period. Otherwise, no one will read it. Therefore, to portray the Hebrew God as this all loving and infinitely sympathetic and gentle figure would have been counter productive for the Jews, in the face of invasions from all sides at the time.

One does not worship a gentle, merciful God in this time period.

Only when Christianity first arose did the concept of the omnipotent creator change into a kind and merciful one. The early Christians preserved the old Jewish stories, but did not alter them. This was an ever evolving trend of divinity, and did no solidify with a bunch of Jewish scribes sitting down one day and write out what they thought was to be worshipped for three centuries to come. Even many Jews of today don't think like that.

But this raises a question then, if the Bible is to be interpreted in context to its era, how much are we supposed to believe? Maybe most of it is exageration intended to speak to the people reading it at the time. How does one seperate the truth from the fiction?

[wagnerr]

bodhi395 said:

wagnerr said:

Because this was the context that the Jews thought in. I am not explaining it, nor do i think it made much sense to write God like this. But it did make sense in the context of all othe dieties of the time period as well, such as the Hellenic Gods of Olympus and the Babylonian Gods.

One writes in the context of the present time period. Otherwise, no one will read it. Therefore, to portray the Hebrew God as this all loving and infinitely sympathetic and gentle figure would have been counter productive for the Jews, in the face of invasions from all sides at the time.

One does not worship a gentle, merciful God in this time period.

Only when Christianity first arose did the concept of the omnipotent creator change into a kind and merciful one. The early Christians preserved the old Jewish stories, but did not alter them. This was an ever evolving trend of divinity, and did no solidify with a bunch of Jewish scribes sitting down one day and write out what they thought was to be worshipped for three centuries to come. Even many Jews of today don't think like that.

But this raises a question then, if the Bible is to be interpreted in context to its era, how much are we supposed to believe? Maybe most of it is exageration intended to speak to the people reading it at the time. How does one seperate the truth from the fiction?

Ah, this was the problem i struggled with when i first started studying biblical history and Latin. However, i don't really have a complete answer for you here, man.

I think that we Christians are supposed to take from the bible what is relevant to our own period now, in the present era. All of the old Hebrew and Greek stuff in the Bible is interesting, but not particularly relevant to us now. Likewise, the Jewish stories and the parables of Christ are also not meant to be taken literally.

I think the lessons the scriptures teach us are far more important than believing every single word of it. You know, stuff like the Ten Commandments, Beatitudes, the advice of Peter and Paul, etc. Lessons that transcend historical context, like Do Not Kill and Honor Thy Father and Mother, things like that.

I am not a biblical fundamentalist, so i don't take the Bible literally, and i also don't accept it word for word. As i've said, it's been translated and transcribed way too many times to be taken at exact face value. But i do believe it contains excellent and wise guidelines for people to live their lives in conjunction with others.

As for separating fact from fiction, so to speak, i am not sure how. I take from the Bible, and every other Christian book written in the last two thousand years, what i think is wisdom and what i can apply to my own life. I do not expect everyone to read it uniformly.

[Bodhi]

wagnerr said:

As for separating fact from fiction, so to speak, i am not sure how. I take from the Bible, and every other Christian book written in the last two thousand years, what i think is wisdom and what i can apply to my own life. I do not expect everyone to read it uniformly.

I totally agree with you here, and that is what I do with the Bible. But I also do it with other religious texts(Taosim, Buddhism, etc..) I don't care. I think many of Jesus's teachings are very wise and more Christians should obey them. I think many people think as long as you believe in Jesus you don't really have to follow what he says, like turn the other cheek and don't accumulate vast sums of wealth. Although some of his teachings I don't agree with, mostly the stuff about sex.

[pansy]

bodhi395 said:

wagnerr said:

As for separating fact from fiction, so to speak, i am not sure how. I take from the Bible, and every other Christian book written in the last two thousand years, what i think is wisdom and what i can apply to my own life. I do not expect everyone to read it uniformly.

I totally agree with you here, and that is what I do with the Bible. But I also do it with other religious texts(Taosim, Buddhism, etc..) I don't care. I think many of Jesus's teachings are very wise and more Christians should obey them. I think many people think as long as you believe in Jesus you don't really have to follow what he says, like turn the other cheek and don't accumulate vast sums of wealth. Although some of his teachings I don't agree with, mostly the stuff about sex.

what did jesus teach about sex?

[Bodhi]

pansy said:

bodhi395 said:

I totally agree with you here, and that is what I do with the Bible. But I also do it with other religious texts(Taosim, Buddhism, etc..) I don't care. I think many of Jesus's teachings are very wise and more Christians should obey them. I think many people think as long as you believe in Jesus you don't really have to follow what he says, like turn the other cheek and don't accumulate vast sums of wealth. Although some of his teachings I don't agree with, mostly the stuff about sex.

what did jesus teach about sex?

Well here is the main thing I don't agree with,

"You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. "

I think regulating your thoughts is just too harsh. I don't think merely thinking about a woman with lust is a sin. Its almost impossible to control your thoughts sometimes, so expecting people to follow this is absurd.

One side note, Jesus himself actually never condemned homosexuality. Yet it is condemned in other parts of the Bible, and many condemn it in his name. But I always have thought, if it was such a big issue, why didn't Jesus say something about it?