how can i meet a woman

[annaa]

lsdima said:

What about my question lsdima? You didn't answer it.

yes

Hmm.. ok. I don't want your answer if you're going to be giving me a bad attitude.

[theinfiniteabyss84]

You can cut the sexual tension in this thread with a knife *cough cough* *nudge nudge*

[airburst]

crashandburn said:

airburst said:

That is the sexiest book cover I've ever seen.

I think this one is sexier ;D ....and the title is hilarious lol

Well, I don't like that one at all.

[annaa]

theinfiniteabyss84 said:

You can cut the sexual tension in this thread with a knife *cough cough* *nudge nudge*

I don't know what you are referring too.

And Air Burst, what was wrong with Crashies book recommendation?

[airburst]

annaa said:

theinfiniteabyss84 said:

You can cut the sexual tension in this thread with a knife *cough cough* *nudge nudge*

I don't know what you are referring too.

And Air Burst, what was wrong with Crashies book recommendation?

Well, I guess if you're gay or a woman, you'd like it.

[annaa]

airburst said:

annaa said:

I don't know what you are referring too.

And Air Burst, what was wrong with Crashies book recommendation?

Well, I guess if you're gay or a woman, you'd like it.

Oh ok. I thought you had some moral objection to the phraze being used..

[phoenixferret]

lsdima said:

I want to hear him respond to this one.

what else do you want me to do?

I invoke the No Stupid Questions policy.

lsdima said:

I don't know what you mean by the FS method. As far as I know its just a collection of articles

And a book is just a collection of pages.

nice of you to construct an argument for me
no, this is not what I am trying to say
I never said anything about secrets or not trusting women

Let me just remind you, you've made it very clear that you believe women don't know what they want. You have said plainly that women always protest that FS wouldn't work on them, but that it virtually always does. Therefore, logically, you are either saying that women are lying, or mistakenly speaking untruths. I can only conclude, then, that you have a bias against women's opinions of FS or dating, as I would have a bias against anyone I deemed incapable of elementary introspection. I consider this especially relevant considering that in another thread when I mentioned I personally dislike cocky guys, you assured me I was wrong. I'm pretty sure that belies some sort of distrustful bias on your part.

as far as FS goes it might not be the best place but I assume you don't just mean FS but the whole spectrum of related advice
so I am trying to point out that there is sound advice out there and its not all bullshit like you claim

You keep falsely saying I “claim” it's all bullshit. That is an excellent example of a straw man. Take note. I'll try to spell this out very plainly.

I believe “seduction” materials are not good resources for the following reasons:

-they discourage kindness by conflating the concept with spinelessness
-they encourage head games and manipulation (anytime you use “psychology” to get someone to do what you want, there’s a good chance a reasonable person would called that “manipulative”)
-they impart a skewed view of women
-they foster misogynistic ideas (no, it won’t make anyone hate women, but it does make it easier)
-they focus on the ability to pick up chicks rather than specifically addressing underlying personal issues (poor self esteem and general social skills)
-they encourage the development of a persona over the expression of the pre-existing personality
-they take an “adversarial approach” to relationships (as I’ve heard the whole test-passing scenario succinctly described)
-they tend to encourage the use of a certain type of teasing that is more akin to a series of passive-aggressive put-downs than playful banter
-they incorporate many of the objectionable concepts in such a way that it can be difficult to really separate "good" ideas from "bad"

So yes, some of the information is useful advice, but most of it doesn’t appear to be exclusive to seduction manuals. Therefore, I feel the negative aspects of seduction techniques outweigh the positive, and you’ve said yourself there are a ton of other resources out there... I recommend trying those other, non-seduction resources.

ok, so drawing is not a good analogy.

The more I think about it, the better it fits, actually. They're both very organic--not like learning algebra, for instance. With algebra, you can pick up a textbook or two; they'll break it down piece by piece, and you're an expert before you know it. When you learn to draw, you might look at a few favorite artists for ideas, but you're not so much learning "this is how an arm is drawn," "this is how a head is drawn," though there are techniques that will teach you that. It's better to train your mind how to translate what you see into marks on a page through observation and practice than to learn how to represent objects x, y, and z. When learning too socialize, it is better to learn how to translate your thoughts into conversation than to learn what things to say.

you just described several completely different things

I know what they are. They all fit under a great big umbrella called "playing head games."

you are the one that wants to call natural flirting manipulation

You know this is false, so why did you bother writing it? *sigh* Rhetorical question.

I never made that statement - I am trying to point out that it is natural flirting and regular guys do it all the time

This makes me think of that play Cyrano de Bergerac. Christian woos Roxane successfully, but uses Cyrano’s words to do it. In the sense that a real person naturally courted women that way, it was natural; in the sense of being an expression of Christian’s own personality, it was not “natural.” That’s the point, really—Roxane falls in love with Cyrano’s personality, not Christian’s, even if it is Christian that actually speaks the words to her. Make of that what you will.

Some people naturally have that “alpha male” not-nice-guy way about them, and some are naturally manipulative, too. I don’t condone the natural incarnation of seduction technique, either (though at least in that case the packaging matches the product). The point is that the techniques are not out of some standard issue man manual that only the girlfriendless "wussy wusses" of the world missed out on. There are countless nice guys--I'm talking real nice, not passive nice--with girlfriends. Surely they didn't all have to cynically "seduce" their partners. And no, the fact they managed to get girlfriends does not mean they aren't really nice, so let's not go there.

but how do you teach someone to flirt? For example to a 'shy' guy pretty much any kind of flirting would seem completely inappropriate and thats tied up in a bunch of attitudes that such a person holds that they need to reexamine. Often a shy guy can't even start a normal converstion with a girl because he is afraid that she will find it creepy.

I don't think it's necessary to teach someone specifically how to flirt. If you learn general confidence and social skills, flirting tends to follow pretty naturally. It really doesn’t have to be a big production.

To quote a couple of posts from the very beginning of this thread:

sweetpea said:

talking to women gets easier the more you practice it. you need practice. go forth and get practice.

sweetpea said:

... if you consistently over time engage in activities you're interested in, and while doing so talk to women whenever you get the chance regardless of the outcome, you will become practiced at talking to women.

This is very sound advice. I'll just add that If a guy can learn to be confident in what he says generally, he'll be built up enough that he won't have to focus on knocking women down from their "pedestals." If he's learned to be assertive, he can be a genuinely nice guy while still sticking up for his own wants and needs; he can be whatever he is according to his individual personality, and the girls he dates will be girls who like him because of, and not in spite of it.

As to how to build confidence, part of it is just doing the anxiety-provoking things and then resisting the urge to tell yourself how worthless you are. Another possibility would be some form of therapy—paying someone to learn how to manipulate one's own thoughts, heh.

Anyway, that’s my opinion on the matter, and I think I've said just about everything worth saying on that particular subject for the present. Anyone who wants to try to pick out the “good” seduction advice from the “bad--” be cautious about making those distinctions. And anyone who decides to follow seduction techniques closely will just get the kind of relationships they deserve. You get what you pay for, after all.

[lennythegiant]

lsdima said:

The way I see it, learning to socialize through trial and error is like learning the guitar through a developed understanding of musical theory and rigorous practice.

no - learning to sozialize (+pursue women romantically) through trial and error is like picking up the guitar and just trying to play. Good luck with that.

Except that socializing is something that someone can get the hang of over time if they try hard enough, and socializing can be learned through trial and error, as opposed to guitar playing which does require instruction. I've got a ways to go in my social improvement, but in six years I've gone from being afraid of my own shadow to being able to hold decent conversations and no longer being scared of being in public, and most of that was through simply doing it and trial and error. I may have read some things here and there that were meant to inspire, but for the most part I learned what to do and what not to do with trial and error. I learned that self-depreciating humor is best used very sparingly, and that doormats don't get anywhere, by making those mistakes and learning from them. So the guitar analogy doesn't really work for socialization.

I like that drawing analogy better. I think a good deal of people could probably draw decently if they took the time. In both socializing and drawing, it takes a hell of a lot of practice, and it also requires someone to pay close attention to detail. Guide books can provide some help here and there, but it is really a matter of how willing someone is to practice and pay attention (in the case of drawing, paying attention to shapes and so on). Definitely in drawing it seems like trying to tackle the whole picture at once leads to failure, it seems to be a matter of concentrating on all the things that make up the big picture (at least from my experience). Now I've lost how this relates to socializing. Maybe in that...learning to socialize for someone with SA takes a lot of small steps and practice? I remember as a teenager that for me just saying hi to people was that first big step that seemed hard at first, but now it's no sweat.

Plus, what am I reading about The Rules now? You can't let the dates eat after midnight or something? They can't get wet, either?

[MrNice]

Except that socializing is something that someone can get the hang of over time if they try hard enough

have you ever tried going after a girl you were interested in?

[MrNice]

-they discourage kindness by conflating the concept with spinelessness

they don't discourage kindness - maybe some do but its quite obvious
and spinelessness really is a problem that has to be dealt with
especially spinelessness with regards to women

-they encourage head games and manipulation (anytime you use “psychology” to get someone to do what you want, there’s a good chance a reasonable person would called that “manipulative”)

some do
but most of the time the 'head game manipulation' means trying to get a guy not to act like a desperate puppy

-they impart a skewed view of women

its possible, but depends on the individual
besides the 'nice guys' view of women is already skewed

-they foster misogynistic ideas (no, it won’t make anyone hate women, but it does make it easier)

some guys might use the 'ideas' to justify their misogyny

-they focus on the ability to pick up chicks rather than specifically addressing underlying personal issues (poor self esteem and general social skills)

Even guys with good social skills in general areas have problems when it comes to women
of course the focus here is on that

-they encourage the development of a persona over the expression of the pre-existing personality

no, they encourage the expression of the preexisting personality

-they take an “adversarial approach” to relationships (as I’ve heard the whole test-passing scenario succinctly described)

the testing viewpoint is yet another attempt to stop guys from acting like desperate puppies

-they tend to encourage the use of a certain type of teasing that is more akin to a series of passive-aggressive put-downs than playful banter

some do, some don't
chose what you want

-they incorporate many of the objectionable concepts in such a way that it can be difficult to really separate "good" ideas from "bad"

its not difficult to separate good ideas from the bad if you have a head on your shoulders

The more I think about it, the better it fits, actually.

thats because it proves your point better
in reality its different as you don't have to go through pain of rejection every time you make a drawing and you don't usually get depressed after spending 6 months attempting to draw your second picture
on top of that many guys are fine socializing in general but have trouble when it comes to women - there is a block in there that prevents them from figuring out how to improve
try learning to draw with a loaded gun to your head knowing that you will be shot if you don't draw it 'right' - or trying to draw while someone is constantly slapping you in the face - how much are you going to learn?

I know what they are. They all fit under a great big umbrella called "playing head games."

not playing head games - just imposing some self control on an otherwise desperate guy whose only priority in conversation is being inoffensive

You know this is false, so why did you bother writing it? *sigh* Rhetorical question.

its true, thats why I wrote it

This makes me think of that play Cyrano de Bergerac. Christian woos Roxane successfully, but uses Cyrano’s words to do it. In the sense that a real person naturally courted women that way, it was natural; in the sense of being an expression of Christian’s own personality, it was not “natural.” That’s the point, really—Roxane falls in love with Cyrano’s personality, not Christian’s, even if it is Christian that actually speaks the words to her. Make of that what you will.

You don't use other people's personality or words to make someone fall in love with you - but you can use it to learn how to bring your own personality out. Most people are stuck in a loop and they never get out of it. The 'natural' way for a shy guy to talk is asking a chain of questions like where do you work, what do you do, what are you interested in and it does end up boring. This fear of being seen as boring is not unfounded.

When learning too socialize, it is better to learn how to translate your thoughts into conversation than to learn what things to say.

the shy/nice guys are severely limiting themselves in terms of what they can say because of fear/low self esteem/attitude. Seeing what other things people can say besides 'so what do you do?' in order to have an interesting conversation seems helpful to me. Also in the beginning, there are not thoughts in the guys head when he is attempting a conversation besides fear and anxiety. If you know what you are going to say it can help you overcome that fear. Once there is less fear you can improvise easier.

I don't think it's necessary to teach someone specifically how to flirt. If you learn general confidence and social skills, flirting tends to follow pretty naturally. It really doesn’t have to be a big production.

unfortunately not
thats why this business is picking up speed
there are tons of guys that lead otherwise normal lives but would like to improve their possibilities with women.

[lennythegiant]

lsdima said:

Except that socializing is something that someone can get the hang of over time if they try hard enough

have you ever tried going after a girl you were interested in?

Yes, yes I have. Sometimes it turns out they aren't interested, sometimes you come to the realization that you might not want that kind of relationship with that person after all. I haven't done a lot of going after girls, because I was usually busy with school or like right now, I'm in a position where I have a lot of shit to straighten out now, so if I tried to pick up girls I'd probably just be categorized as a jobless loser. I figure girls generally want a guy who has some kind of direction, and I'm at a point where I need to find that direction. So my experience with flirting with girls or going out with them is really only a handful, because I was usually busy with school, plus I didn't have a car available on a consistent basis until a few months ago.

It probably also doesn't help that since leaving college, I only have a couple of friends, and one probably wouldn't be too interested in trying to go to the type of places to meet girls, and one is probably worse off socially than I am.

I think my point still stands. People can get better at socializing if they continue to try. You eventually learn what to do and what not to do. Most people have no problem with socializing because it's something that typically comes naturally. People run into problems when something along the way stunted their social development. They may have fallen behind, but they can catch up, it just might take some time.

Rejection from girls happens. It's a fact of life. You aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. I'm sure plenty of girls here and elsewhere haven't been a particular guy's cup of tea either. It doesn't mean you have to learn some bullshit tricks in order to seduce women. If you are just out to get some tail from a horny chick, I guess it's fine. But like I said before, not having luck with the ladies is just one aspect of a larger problem.

If there is one piece of good advice from all that crap, it's not to be a wuss. But really that is something that can be applied to all aspects of life, because generally confidence is a major plus when you are pursuing anything. Other than that, I don't see the appeal of learning stupid pick up lines and acronyms, and I don't get how women would fall for it, unless they're drunk or ditzy. Otherwise I think it kind of insults their intelligence. Women know what they want a good deal of the time. Some of them might be particularly picky, but oh well. A lot of dudes are picky too.

Here's what I'm curious about. If pick up artistry is so damn great, how much luck have you had with the ladies?

[carboncopy]

lennythegiant said:

Yes, yes I have. Sometimes it turns out they aren't interested, sometimes you come to the realization that you might not want that kind of relationship with that person after all. I haven't done a lot of going after girls, because I was usually busy with school or like right now, I'm in a position where I have a lot of shit to straighten out now, so if I tried to pick up girls I'd probably just be categorized as a jobless loser. I figure girls generally want a guy who has some kind of direction, and I'm at a point where I need to find that direction. So my experience with flirting with girls or going out with them is really only a handful, because I was usually busy with school, plus I didn't have a car available on a consistent basis until a few months ago.

The truth is, a job or a car will not make you any more confident and girls will NOT approach you if you don't do it yourself (unless your car is a Ferrari F430 - google it, it's beautiful). To be honest it sounds like you haven't done any serious approaching yet. Beggars are not choosers. Or to be clear - can you name an example of a girl that you went after and you figured out she wasn't right for you other than the fact that she gave you a cold shoulder?

lennythegiant said:

It probably also doesn't help that since leaving college, I only have a couple of friends, and one probably wouldn't be too interested in trying to go to the type of places to meet girls, and one is probably worse off socially than I am.

That's a big factor, crucial one actually. Without social backing you are severely hampered because people are judgemental creatures. Everyone is quick to pounce and prey on any perceived weakness. If you go to any social venue and cannot produce a circle of "buddies" to fall back on, you are immediately pigeonholed as a desperate and pathetic loser. Good luck trying to score with that label stuck to your forehead.

lennythegiant said:

I think my point still stands. People can get better at socializing if they continue to try. You eventually learn what to do and what not to do. Most people have no problem with socializing because it's something that typically comes naturally. People run into problems when something along the way stunted their social development. They may have fallen behind, but they can catch up, it just might take some time.

Valid point. Repetition makes one better. Much better. The only condition here is perseverance against adversity and mood swings. Socializing needs to be studied and practiced with utmost intensity, like someone practicing for a Chopin recital or Olympic event in gymnastics - religiously.

lennythegiant said:

Rejection from girls happens. It's a fact of life. You aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. I'm sure plenty of girls here and elsewhere haven't been a particular guy's cup of tea either. It doesn't mean you have to learn some bullshit tricks in order to seduce women. If you are just out to get some tail from a horny chick, I guess it's fine. But like I said before, not having luck with the ladies is just one aspect of a larger problem.

Good advice for the most part. Although it seems to me that men have developed seduction techniques only recently and it's a tell-tale sign of changing times.

lennythegiant said:

If there is one piece of good advice from all that crap, it's not to be a wuss. But really that is something that can be applied to all aspects of life, because generally confidence is a major plus when you are pursuing anything. Other than that, I don't see the appeal of learning stupid pick up lines and acronyms, and I don't get how women would fall for it, unless they're drunk or ditzy. Otherwise I think it kind of insults their intelligence. Women know what they want a good deal of the time. Some of them might be particularly picky, but oh well. A lot of dudes are picky too.

It's not really about pick up lines. It's more about appropriating the right demeanor. I am not a big fan of seduction techniques, but it is also one of the indicators how strange romantic life has become in this society. Being straightforward has no place in the equation so you have to put on various masks.

Most guys are actually romantics at heart. It's the continuous failure that makes them cynical and pragmatic.

[annaa]

lsdima said:

besides the 'nice guys' view of women is already skewed...

How so?

lennythegiant said:

Other than that, I don't see the appeal of learning stupid pick up lines and acronyms, and I don't get how women would fall for it, unless they're drunk or ditzy. Otherwise I think it kind of insults their intelligence. Women know what they want a good deal of the time. Some of them might be particularly picky, but oh well. A lot of dudes are picky too.

So true.. You're seem to be one of the only guys that is making sense.

Something else I feel about "pick up artists" is that ultimately, they are scammers. They are picking out guys with low self-esteem and are exploiting them. The quality of their advice isn't that good at all - a lot of it I think could be thought of without their help.

It makes me livid to think that nice guys, who are fragile because of possible past rejection, are (in some situations) paying to have themselves brainwashed into thinking the way they are isn't good enough. After following advice from these pick-up artists, they then have created a false persona in hope of getting with the sort of girls that rejected them... which completely ignores the advice of 'be yourself'. To be honest, even if someone got a girl from following a 'pick-up artists' advice, it is very unlikely it would turn into anything meaningful or long term.

Who wants to be with a girl in the long term who was 'picked up' so easily in the first place? Honestly, how insecure would that make you feel, every time she was out without you? All it would take, in theory, is for another guy to use one of the same techniques you did, and *hello*, we have a cheater!
Got the answer to this one lsdima?

lennythegiant said:

Here's what I'm curious about. If pick up artistry is so damn great, how much luck have you had with the ladies?

I'd be very interested in knowing this too.

[MrNice]

Something else I feel about "pick up artists" is that ultimately, they are scammers. They are picking out guys with low self-esteem and are exploiting them. The quality of their advice isn't that good at all - a lot of it I think could be thought of without their help.

It makes me livid to think that nice guys, who are fragile because of possible past rejection, are (in some situations) paying to have themselves brainwashed into thinking the way they are isn't good enough. After following advice from these pick-up artists, they then have created a false persona in hope of getting with the sort of girls that rejected them... which completely ignores the advice of 'be yourself'. To be honest, even if someone got a girl from following a 'pick-up artists' advice, it is very unlikely it would turn into anything meaningful or long term.

Who wants to be with a girl in the long term who was 'picked up' so easily in the first place? Honestly, how insecure would that make you feel, every time she was out without you? All it would take, in theory, is for another guy to use one of the same techniques you did, and *hello*, we have a cheater!
Got the answer to this one lsdima?

You have the wrong impression about what the advice is. I tried to correct it but it seems a futile exercise.

I'd be very interested in knowing this too.

A lot more 'luck' then by just doing trial and error

[annaa]

lsdima said:

Something else I feel about "pick up artists" is that ultimately, they are scammers. They are picking out guys with low self-esteem and are exploiting them. The quality of their advice isn't that good at all - a lot of it I think could be thought of without their help.

It makes me livid to think that nice guys, who are fragile because of possible past rejection, are (in some situations) paying to have themselves brainwashed into thinking the way they are isn't good enough. After following advice from these pick-up artists, they then have created a false persona in hope of getting with the sort of girls that rejected them... which completely ignores the advice of 'be yourself'. To be honest, even if someone got a girl from following a 'pick-up artists' advice, it is very unlikely it would turn into anything meaningful or long term.

Who wants to be with a girl in the long term who was 'picked up' so easily in the first place? Honestly, how insecure would that make you feel, every time she was out without you? All it would take, in theory, is for another guy to use one of the same techniques you did, and *hello*, we have a cheater!
Got the answer to this one lsdima?

You have the wrong impression about what the advice is. I tried to correct it but it seems a futile exercise.

No, I don't have the wrong idea.
I think you are one of the poor souls they are scamming.