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Post by Samantha on Jun 4, 2005 8:19:04 GMT -5
You're probably right here, i think, about the homosexuality thing. A young man without a father would probably have trouble relating to women as a result. Although this does not necessarily mean he'll become gay. Well I grew up without a father and it's quite the opposite for me. I find it far easier to talk and make friends with women. Alot less macho bullshit which I don't get. Plus I wouldn't be too good at it not that I'd ever want to be. I'm not even going to go into whether you choose your sexuality....
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Post by shypsychologyguy on Jun 4, 2005 14:03:00 GMT -5
I dont think it has to do with relating to women I think its relating to men. If you are ok with me asking papdancer are you gay?
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Post by zaab on Jun 4, 2005 15:08:12 GMT -5
I dont think it has to do with relating to women I think its relating to men. If you are ok with me asking papdancer are you gay? If homosexuality really is connected to how well you relate to your same sex peers, then I think a vast majority of shy guys must be gay. On the surface this theory seems to have some major flaws. I grew up very alienated from my male peers and I don't think I could be any more attracted to women or any more repelled by guys than I am now. This is just me, maybe every other guy on here is homosexual and they're just not admitting it. Or it could be that I'm a lesbian in a man's body.
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Post by shypsychologyguy on Jun 4, 2005 17:04:09 GMT -5
there is no single patern or factor. again i stress that relationship to others is one factor amoung many.
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Post by Samantha on Jun 4, 2005 19:09:03 GMT -5
I dont think it has to do with relating to women I think its relating to men. If you are ok with me asking papdancer are you gay? Sorry when Russ said: "A young man without a father would probably have trouble relating to WOMEN as a result." I assumed he meant WOMEN and not men...hehe sorry, couldn't resist. No offense meant. Nah it's cool, you can ask me whatever you want. I'm not gay although due to a lack of prowess with women in the past a few people have thought so. Gotta love teenagers, they know it all you know. They've seen films!!! I think (admittedly that doesn't amount to much) that too much emphasis is placed on the nurture side of the debate. I understand why (actually I'm just making a massive assumption) because it gives us hope that we can shape our destiny and mould future generations into what we wish society should be like. I also think that too much emphasis is placed on being a MAN or a WOMAN. Yes the sexes are different but we are still individuals or at least human. I would rather be me, have my own thoughts, ideas, behaviours etc than be pidgeon holed into a cliche or stereotype. In some ways because I didn't have a father to teach what it 'means' to be a man, I've been free to develop my own distinct personality, much to the disappointment of others...hehe life's a bitch. Umm yeah sorry I'm rambling. I just have no idea why not having a father means you can't relate to women....surely that's got more to do with your relationship with your mum...right? Unless of course it goes back to not being taught what it means to be a MAN. That being gay isn't being a REAL MAN...but I'll leave it there...*deep breathe*
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Post by shypsychologyguy on Jun 4, 2005 19:43:55 GMT -5
I have known a boy for all my life whos father lived elsewhere and rarely saw him . he also had two older sisters. as a result he became a very femanine adolescent and has a ton of friends but they are mostly girls. In his case he learned to be feminine . hes not gay though. Nature and Nurture will never be fully understood because with Brain studies , environmental factors can cause brain functioning to change Genetics never change though but to date there hasnt been any solid find to support that it does anything besides predispose a child to be passive or femanine acting which does not in itself cause homosexuality.
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Post by Samantha on Jun 4, 2005 20:30:21 GMT -5
Ah yeah predisposition. It's the modern buzzword. I do believe in nurture. I just also believe in nature. There was a great program not so long ago about a boy who as a child had an accident which resulted in having his penis removed. He was brought up as a girl for the whole of his life due to one psychologists theory. In the end it fucked up his life. It didn't work. He was born a man. He died a man (after he killed himself due to the upbringing he had).
I guess it's hard to say for sure at the moment. I probably just have a gut instinct for nature. Either way we are what we are. It's only a problem if you believe in a strict view of what we should be and want to change people into what you think they should be.
After all you can't raise thin air as if it were a child and then suddenly *poof* theres a kiddy wink. Ha ha, sorry. I'm an evoloutionist. If evoloution, genetic change can take us from amoeba to human than....I guess I think genes have an important role to play. Maybe the amoebas just had advanced parenting techniques though.
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Post by shypsychologyguy on Jun 4, 2005 21:15:37 GMT -5
I think this is what you are refering to its Dr. Sander Breiner, a Psychoanalyst and Professor of Psychiatry at Michigan State University and Wayne State University
"More than 50 or 60 years an accidental hormonal study was done as I recall in Puerto Rico. Young women were given a drug that affected their sexual hormone balance. This resulted in many children being born whose genitals appeared to be females. These children were raised as little girls without any evidence of discomfort in this social structure. However, when they reached puberty, normal male genitalia developed. What had been thought to be a clitoris turned out to be a penis; and undescended testes descended. Following this unexpected event, the girls-now-turned boys were treated as boys and grew up to be men. Follow-up studies did not indicate any significant increase in homosexuality or decrease in percentage of marriages in this group. This old and infrequently referred to accidental study clearly demonstrates that it takes a great deal of psychological problems in the first five years of life to produce the imperfect conflict resolution of homosexuality."
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Post by wagnerr on Jun 4, 2005 22:48:29 GMT -5
Sayoran, i read your post, and if you're still here, well, i can also relate. I also had a crush on a teacher. My eigth grade reading teacher; she was gorgeous! But the thing was, she pretty much just let me alone, and since this was a difficult time for me, i appreciated it immensely. I was very quiet at this time in my life, and now i'm way past all this. I can't tell you how i got through all of it, it just happened. Now i'm about to enter the adult world for real, and i'm not sure i'm ready. But i have seen that most adults treat each other differently; usualy with much more respect for each other. Anyway, if you're worried about losing contact with your teacher, well, these things will happen. Crushes will come and go. Strawberry's right; they just happen. You can't control them. But the good thing is that you will be able to continue onwards anyway. I found after numerous heartbreaks that the best thing to do is to focus on something that you enjoy doing. That way, your pain will ease in time. Not immediately, no, but in time it may go away. Sorry, i'm not too good with these things.
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Post by Samantha on Jun 5, 2005 7:05:21 GMT -5
I think this is what you are refering to its Dr. Sander Breiner, a Psychoanalyst and Professor of Psychiatry at Michigan State University and Wayne State University "More than 50 or 60 years an accidental hormonal study was done as I recall in Puerto Rico. Young women were given a drug that affected their sexual hormone balance. This resulted in many children being born whose genitals appeared to be females. These children were raised as little girls without any evidence of discomfort in this social structure. However, when they reached puberty, normal male genitalia developed. What had been thought to be a clitoris turned out to be a penis; and undescended testes descended. Following this unexpected event, the girls-now-turned boys were treated as boys and grew up to be men. Follow-up studies did not indicate any significant increase in homosexuality or decrease in percentage of marriages in this group. This old and infrequently referred to accidental study clearly demonstrates that it takes a great deal of psychological problems in the first five years of life to produce the imperfect conflict resolution of homosexuality." No that wasn't it. Sounds interesting though...damn you. I hate psychology shush. I've tried to find out what the programme was and who it was about but I can't find anything. I'm googley challenged I'm afraid. I'll update, if I find out more. Oh and crushes...oh I had the most beautiful psychology teacher (rather aptly) at college. She was like Kylie Minogue but without the expensive haircuts. *wipes away a nostalgic tear* Unfortunately you've just got to ride them out. Oh God, I've just remembered the tight riding trousers she used to wear....she was evil
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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 5, 2005 14:11:23 GMT -5
I agree with paulthequiet. I think that perhaps a person's environment and what they've been through could affect them in a way...but I also think there has to be something more, something biological or whatever. I can't imagine anyone "choosing" to be gay...unless they were bisexual and are attracted to both sexes and decide to be with someone of the same sex. I don't think anyone would want to be gay on purpose. That's like saying I could make myself gay and sexually attracted to females. You are attracted to whoever you are attracted to, and I don't believe that anything can change that. And I have heard people say that they felt different at very young ages. And what about those cases where a homosexual man tries to be straight by marrying a woman....only the secret comes out later on. I don't think that means that he chose to be gay...he just couldn't take it anymore, living a lie and all. I agree. I can't imagine why anyone would choose to be gay. It's harder to find companions, and you open yourself up to a lot of unneeded mokery. There is also the risk people might beat you up, etc. From what i've studied of homosexuals, they seem to choose their gayness at some point in their life, often when they were teenagers. From what I've studied, they don't suddenly decide to become gay, instead they come to terms with their sexuality. Many go on for years trying to pretend they aren't gay, through sham marriges. When they finally accept that they are gay, they are happier. Even if they don't publically make it known they are gay, they've come to terms with themselves. At least this was what I've picked up dealing with a gay friend when he had problems coming to terms with his sexuality. Having said that, just because they don't choose, doesn't mean it's 100% biological. I think both environmental and biological factors play a part. It's actually not unlike shyness. Who would choose to be shy? But at the same time biological and enviromental influences play a role.
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Post by Samantha on Jun 5, 2005 18:25:15 GMT -5
I don't ever recall choosing my sexuality. Maybe I wasn't paying attention.
I guess if you believe in God, the soul, free will etc then having something like your sexuality, which is such a fundamental aspect of who we are governed by biology just doesn't fit. Like refusing to believe the Earth goes round the Sun and not vice versa. Although admittedly astronomy is alot easier to prove.
How can homosexuality be a sin if it isn't a decision we make. If it was something completely out of a persons control. It would make as much sense as saying being English is a sin. Just don't tell the Scots it isn't he he.
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Post by shypsychologyguy on Jun 6, 2005 22:39:50 GMT -5
how did this become a religious discussion? if you want answers I will post it but i remeber last time religion was discussed noone wanted a part of it , and it got too heated.
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Post by shypsychologyguy on Jun 6, 2005 23:26:37 GMT -5
homosexuals that seek change arent always doing it for religious reasons. There are several non-religious organization one in Germany and elsewhere that provide help for unwanted same sex desire. Pathinfo.org is a gateway to all of these type groups secular or religious. Why they seek change has been studied and some report finding the gay lifestyle unfilfilling, wanting children and a wife, being addicted to it, having obsessions and compulsions about it, being convinced the perfect partner will not be found in the gay realm, conflicts with values (not neccesarily religious), fear of disease or early death.
on one sight they said that they never felt pressured to change from social stigma (as the world is more tolerant)but that they felt pressured to come out and were stigmatised (I take it from the gay community or gay advocates) for wanting to seek change and not come out.
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Post by Samantha on Jun 7, 2005 14:03:05 GMT -5
Ah yeah sorry. It just struck me that some of the people who had talked about gender preference being a choice had mentioned they went to church. Or at least I thought they did. It was more thinking out loud, nothing against religion, many religious people are homosexual or at least accepting of it. It just dawned on me, maybe that played a part in why you guys might see it as a choice.
It wasn't really related and by no means do I want to twist it round into a discussion on religion. Most of the time people believe what they want to be true, my self included and try to find evidence to support their view of the world. I guess I was trying to understand where you might be coming from.
You really don't have to post answers on my account. I was thinking this was like a conversation not an argument or debate. Apologies if it came across that way.
You're right there are people who seek change. Which makes me think if sexuality was just a choice someone makes, why would they need help? To me it suggests they want to change because of who they 'are'. If it were a choice like what shoes you are going to wear today then they could do it just like that. Except for maybe the addiction, obsession and compulsion but many heterosexual people are like that about sex. Should they try and not be straight or simply cure the addiction etc aspects of themselves?
Wanting to change something about yourself doesn't mean it was a choice in the first place. How many people here want to change the way they look? Want to be more handsome, taller/shorter? etc. Does that mean they chose to be 'ugly', short/tall?
Anyway, just to say again that I'm trying to talk with you not argue with you. Now it's my turn to ask if I can enquire about your attitudes to homosexuality? It's none of my business but I would like to know where you are coming from. Just curiosity. Also does it matter to you whether homosexuality is a choice or not?
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