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Post by Rene on Feb 3, 2004 23:50:51 GMT -5
Hey Gary.. sorry for the empty post..do it all the time I think you're a VERY hardworking person, and I would love to meet someone with all your experiences.. by reading your story I learned one big lesson: Shyness doesnt just go like that, you have to fight it..really fight it.. I'm 20, and shy as hell..I would love to beleive those who say shy is not a very bad thing, but I think it's a mental illness..it basically holds you back from doing the good things you always wanted to do..been an "A" guy all my life, and thought shyness is not a big deal..turned out social skill has the final word.. I really wish you the best luck, and thanks for encouraging us to TAKE STEPS to over come shyness. your friend, Rene' PS. you're an english teacher, so excuse the horrible spelling ;D
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Post by CaryGrant on Feb 7, 2004 12:47:26 GMT -5
Hi Rene,
I taught grade 7/8 science for a year, but am not a teacher. I am a writer, though, so you still have to worry about your use of the language. ;D Feel free to email me if you want - I think it's listed in my online profile.
Yes, there are positive aspects to being shy, like becoming a good listener and more empathetic, but overall shyness sucks. I imagine shyness and outgoingness at opposite ends of a continuum, and somewhere in the middle is a good balance - and you're held back by choice, not fear. Otherwise you know you're missing out on all kinds of things because of fear.
Yup, shyness goes when a concerted effort is made to do something about it. In my case, many, many small steps have produced definite progress. One habit I've been developing is looking back at where I was few months ago, a year ago, or even further. If I'm objective, I have to admit I'm less shy, more confident, and certainly happier. (And also acknowledge that I want to go further.) Situations that used to cause me great anxiety are no longer a problem. Without taking this long-term, balanced view, it's easy to focus on the areas where I am still shy and not who I want to be, or accepting of who I am.
In addition, now that I an consciously working on my shyness, the progress is much faster than when I was blundering around in the dark, with my subconscious trying to help me out but me being too wrapped up in my fears to know what was going on - so often sabotaging myself, or getting scared and becoming worse off.
Dating, for example. I cannot yet chat up women in the supermarket and ask them out, but I can tell I'm getting close. I have been meeting lots of women thanks to online dating services, speed dating, plus one or two from more traditional sources. Where in the past I would tend to want to cling to a woman - partly because of a fear of never finding another - all this dating has made me realise that there are indeed lots of fish in the sea, and that I can get them. Once I get to the level of asking women in supermarkets out, the pool deepens considerably.
So this fear is an area of insecurity/shyness that is gone forever. First because I know I can always find women to date, if I so choose, and second because I am less concerned about that, anyway - I'm much happier with myself. The difference for me is between needing a girlfriend/wife/partner and wanting one.
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Post by CaryGrant on Feb 17, 2004 19:50:36 GMT -5
While walking down the street today, I actually looked at a woman, and when she didn't break eye contact, nodded and said "Hi." Not much, but I don't remember ever having been able to do that before. I find it helps to give myself permission to keep right on walking - if I know I'm not going to stop, it's easier to take those risks. Of course, once I get comfortable with walking and greeting...
And I made a video for the online dating service (lavalife) that I'm in, using my webcam. I'm rather kooky in it, but decided to leave it. All the other videos I've seen are so boring. If a woman doesn't like my sense of humour...then the video should scare her away.
While I was quite nervous while making it, I was able to be much freer in expressing myself. I just told myself I didn't have to post it...but then I decided to. The neat thing about the video is that I am showing a part of me that I rarely let out, but that I know is in there....
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Post by Jarous on Feb 18, 2004 13:07:28 GMT -5
Congratulations Cary,
I'd like to tell you you are a symbol of shyness-defeating success to me and your diary a great source of inspiration and encouragement.
Well done on the dating video - but don't be so quick to judge the other pieces - from personal experience I can tell you much of what appears boring to us may very well be interesting to others.
I wish you good luck, you seem to be on the right track.
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Post by CaryGrant on Feb 21, 2004 11:54:02 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words, Jarous. I find it very rewarding to hear that posting my story is helping someone in any way. I may actually look around for online chat with video as one step toward being myself in front of others. If I can let loose a bit more online with strangers, then I can do so with "real people." Though I am pushing myself more that way all the time. A date today with H2 - met her through Internet dating. I've actually averaged about 1.5 dates per week (ha ha) thanks to Internet and speed dating, but she's one of the few I've actually liked and found attractive. I have decided that I will taper off the Internet dating and go more for face-to-face meetings - speed dating for a start - because I'm ready. Well, not really, but it's the next step. I play volleyball on Friday nights - thought it would be a good way to meet people, and I really enjoy being part of a team. But I did exactly what I didn't want to do, in that I half-asked a woman on my team out. Not that I didn't want to go out with her, but the way I did it...Cary Grant would never have done that. We had to exchange phone numbers, as she is responsible for calling us about schedule changes and such. As I gave it to her I said, in a joking manner, something like, "Now if you don't have a date on Saturday night, you can call me." Not too smooth. Well, I don't mind not being smooth, but...a little courage would have been good. I find I play hockey MUCH better and have much more fun when I play with confidence. When I do not, for example, apologise for every bad play, or even good plays that don't work out. A fellow player once advised me, when I was in the middle of such an apology, "Doesn't matter. Whatever you do, just be decisive about it." I find this applies almost everywhere, including dating. If I'm thinking about asking a woman out, I should decide what I want to do and then just do it (thank you, Nike). Hopefully I've learned this lesson and will not have to repeat it! I read a dating book which gave similar advice on the first "goodnight kiss" that causes so much anxiety. It said...just do it. Meaning, if you have decided you want to see this person again, just lean in and kiss her. Don't ask, don't hesitate, just do. If she doesn't want to be kissed, she'll turn her cheek. I have to say that it works, and it shows confidence. I'll let you know how that goes today.
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Post by CaryGrant on Feb 28, 2004 12:01:52 GMT -5
Update...the kiss went fine, no problem. We got lip. Still having a hard time getting much time with this woman, though. I don't know if it's because she's shy, too, or because she doesn't like me that much. If I were nonshy, I would very likely assume it's because she doesn't like me. I also realised we haven't talked about deeper relationship stuff. And the volleyball woman smokes, so she's out.
If you've been following Placido's diary (in Rants), you know that overcoming shyness is not a steady progression. There are good days and not-so-good days, and those days can stretch into weeks, months, years - a lifetime - if you're not careful.
Like Placido, I've been working away at becoming less shy, I have made very good progress, and occasionally feel stalled. Like now. At times like these I have to remind myself that often progress is happening, though I may not be consciously aware of it. I have changed, but sometimes it's not noticeable until I find myself in a new situation and new behaviours display themselves. Or perhaps until some internal "processing" has occurred, and then a new part of me is unlocked.
I feel I've been dating and seeking to create friendships forever (ok, a few months) and nothing is happening. However, if I can be more objective, I do realise that I'm not the same person, so when I find a potentially compatible date or friend, I am much more likely to actually make something of it. Before I went through all this effort to change, I probably would have sabotaged things. Now I will at least try.
And now I realise that I can screw things up a bit and dates and potential friendships will still work out, if there is really a connection. Before I would have berated myself for not doing something right, or doing something wrong, and costing myself a chance at a date or friend. Now I know that, if I have to do everything perfectly in order to get or keep a date or friend, it's not a good relationship. Friends accept each other's imperfections, even value them, because it shows the person is human. I do this for others...why should I have such difficulty believing someone can do it for me?
And...some people are just not right at all. I talked on the phone with a woman who liked my profile on lavalife, but she was a real...how to put this nicely...bitch. And she knew it, and she was ok with that. With her, relationships are a competition, a power struggle, and you are a loser if you don't stand up to her. I think that confidence is a wonderful thing, but I don't think she had much. She comes across as extremely confident, which I found initially intimidating, until I realised she was actually quite insecure - but doesn't realise.
To this woman, the world is very black-and-white, and she has strong opinions about many things. But these are barriers against intimacy, really, because she is not at all open, though she likes to believe she is. She can't have a discussion, it has to be an argument. And I suspect she's convinced not so much by reason as by emotion, meaning, "This guy is so strong in his views, I'll follow him," rather than, "This guy is right about this." She would think she was changing her views because he had convinced her, but would not realise that the convincing was all emotional, not rational.
As an example, she was an astrology freak. Not that there can't be some element of truth, but to her, being a Taurus made me stubborn. Period. I used to be, but I am not any more. But to her, Taurus = stubborn; your astrological sign is your destiny, it is not possible to change who you are. Meaning, she is not really open to the idea that people, including herself, can change, though she described herself as open and said she was into personal growth.
To listen to her talk, though, you'd think she had it all figured out. She's an example of someone who is not shy but who is incapable of intimacy in the true sense, meaning loving AND allowing herself to be loved, accepting others AND allowing them to accept her.
Anyway, she was a good reminder that I don't fit with everyone, and it's not because there is anything wrong with me. In fact, there will be many people I will not fit with because there are things that are right with me and wrong with them.
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Post by CaryGrant on Mar 11, 2004 11:19:46 GMT -5
A little bit bummed today...a woman I'd gone out with a few times told me she didn't want to date...we could be friends if I was interested. Sigh. The sad thing is, while I found her quite attractive, intelligent, etc., even I knew there was "something" missing. Still, I would have given it a couple more dates. Sad also because I don't have anyone else on the horizon, and you shy people know what that's like. To us, opportunities seem to be so few and far between that it's easy to become very disconsolate at the loss of an opportunity, even if it's not a good one. That's the way I'm feeling despite the fact that I had a date with another woman last night...but there were too many things missing, though she's a very nice person. She waited for a goodnight kiss at the end, which I didn't give her (hey, she could have kissed me), and this is also something I need to resolve. I just don't feel comfortable being very physically intimate - not even kissing - unless I feel an emotional connection, too. I envy those people - men and women - who don't seem to ascribe great meaning to the smallest physical things, a touch or a kiss. They seem to enjoy it, where I attach all kind of significance to it that doesn't have to be there.
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Post by Jarous on Mar 11, 2004 12:59:14 GMT -5
She waited for a goodnight kiss at the end, which I didn't give her. ... I envy those people - men and women - who don't seem to ascribe great meaning to the smallest physical things, a touch or a kiss. They seem to enjoy it, where I attach all kind of significance to it that doesn't have to be there. Cary, I am not sure whether there's anything to envy at all. If they don't ascribe meaning to those, don't they devaluate them? Giving without thinking, they hardly give as much as you do, even if it takes a little longer. Shouldn't everything you do be significant in some way, doubly so when your girl-friend is concerned? Would you rather give physical expressions of your feelings for their own sake? A kiss given just like that - what is it compared to a kiss given from your heart to a woman you really love?
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Post by CaryGrant on Mar 12, 2004 11:36:07 GMT -5
Hmm...good point, Jarous. Let me think out loud for a minute, and I'd be curious to know what you and others think:
In my experience, to some people, a kiss (or even sex) is fun, exciting, pleasurable. It may also carry deeper emotional meaning if they are kissing (whatevering) someone they love.
My concern is that, for me, a kiss always has to carry this deeper emotional meaning, it can never be just fun, exciting, pleasurable. I think that insisting on this deep meaning makes it more difficult to enjoy the moment, to have pleasure generally.
Thoughts? I am trying to work through this, so would be curious to know what people think.
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Post by spitzig on Mar 12, 2004 12:48:58 GMT -5
Well, I'm a fan of "living in the moment". So just enjoying a kiss as a kiss is a good thing, in my opinion. However, I tend to think that a goodnight kiss tends to be a way of indicating interest. So, giving one when there is no interest would seem deceptive. Although the deception might be for "nice" reasons, it's just putting off a future rejection.
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Ghost
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Post by Ghost on Mar 12, 2004 15:04:36 GMT -5
I agree Cary, that that is the same to me. I am not a easy one to get close to. I only let people get closer by if I get believe in them, trust. So a kiss is to me something more then just a candy treat I give away. Not meaning to condem others: each should have it's own value to a kiss.
That's why I am somewhat puzzled by goodnight kisses. People sometimes do it too easy and kiss a person out of habit. That way I wouldn't be able to tell if someone would mean it "serious" or just as kindness/habit.
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Post by CaryGrant on Mar 15, 2004 12:00:41 GMT -5
Some people seem better able to enjoy kissing, etc., without necessarily tying it to any emotion other than immediate pleasure. Seems we shy people have a hard time with that.
A good weekend - no dates for a change but I got together with a couple of...wait for it...friends! The first ones I've made since moving here! Very exciting! Obviously! Making friends has been my priority, and I'm so happy that it's finally happening.
It's still early days yet, of course, but I can see that the potential is there and that my efforts will continue to pay off. Even if things were to fall apart with these two, I now feel much more confident that all my work does produce results.
I should mention that some of my "work" involves letting go - allowing things to happen so I don't feel pressured to always make things happen, but trust that I do my part and the rest will follow.
Though I feel my program to de-shy myself is going well, I signed myself up with a local therapist who specializes in social and other anxiety. I thought it would be helpful to have a coach, because there are times when I don't know what to do, or even whether I should be doing anything. Anyway, I mentioned my idea of a shyness/SA support group that I wanted to start, and this prodded her to get going on planning an SA workshop she had been thinking about doing!
So it's nice to see and feel that progress is being made! I'm also looking for a new apartment, and part of that is to create a social space so I feel comfortable having people over.
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Post by Placido on Mar 15, 2004 19:28:18 GMT -5
Hi Cary - I've made new friends too, and the experience proved strange. One night we ended up chatting till about 5am, covering every subject under the sun - the next day part of me felt good that I'd made the contact, but somehow also violated, that I'd been 'made' to give bits of myself away. This person wasn't acting or speaking in a way that was over-familiar, by any means, it just felt odd to be forming a new relationship outside of my tried and trusted circle.
That was a few weeks ago, though, and since then my guard has dropped somewhat - I haven't really made a new friend in over a decade, and my circle of acquaintances has been more or less set in stone for at least the last four years. It's hard, as you say, letting yourself go.
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Ghost
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Post by Ghost on Mar 22, 2004 6:01:59 GMT -5
Yes, it is possible to enjoy kissing without emotional attachment. But I don't do that. I don't want to give the wrong impression (the types I attract are serious shy or too old, oh woe me *snicker*). But the main thing is that I am reserved and I have the "wait to see which way the cat jumps" attitude. I don't put trust in people that easily. You got together with friends? AAAAAAARRRRGH! Nah, just kidding ;D Good news and that you gave the therapist a nudge in the rigfht direction I am "occasional" looking for another place to live. Though I am fine living where I live, I would like to have more space, among other things. No rush though, that's why I "ocassional" look into it
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Post by CaryGrant on Mar 22, 2004 13:04:33 GMT -5
Still waffling on the whole kissing thing...the therapist thinks it's good to hold off, too. She (personally) regards kissing as quite intimate, so prefers to wait until she knows the person well enough. Some people, though, seem to view kissing as fun or serious, depending upon who they're with. A spectacular weekend must be reported. Up at 5:30 to go golfing with some guys at work on Saturday. This was followed by a first meeting with a woman I met via the Internet - she is very nice, and I quite liked her, but no chemistry. She, however, was very interested, bringing up a next date and emailing me right after our date to tell me what a great time she had. I was feeling great about myself before the date, and I gave her a big hug pre- and post-date, and I was charming - having fun, unselfconscious. Maybe not quite Cary Grant, but not bad. I told her I'd be happy to proceed as friends and let whatever was going to develop, do so. I've decided this is the way to go with dating, cliched though it may be: friends first. This could mean that kissing, etc. waits for some time, but any woman who doesn't want to wait is not for me. Not sure that I would turn down the opportunity of casual kissing with the right woman. After the "date," I went to a birthday party for one of my new friends, where I met 6 of her friends - all very nice people. One, a woman, was adorable, a real sweetie. Too young, sadly.... Again, though, I was feeling great and was able to have a good time and not focus on me-me-me. So I noticed that the sweetie liked me, too. She lit up when we talked, she touched me on the arm, etc. In the past I might have figured this out way after the fact. Like, days. Now I can do it real-time! Still can't do anything about it.... All-in-all, I spent less than two hours at home on Saturday between 5:30 a.m. and midnight. Not that I want to do that all the time, but it was gratifying to "have a life" for a bit! And, here's a crazy coincidence for you guys. I've written a novel called Manifesting Meg Ryan which is currently sitting with various agents for review. Saturday night, my ex-wife gets invited to a small party at which Meg Ryan was also a guest. What are the odds? She couldn't work my book in, though, but she'll think of a way. Rene described me as a very hardworking person (though I think I'm quite lazy in some areas!), and perhaps I am. More so, though, I am really trying to be open, to let things happen for me, and to let the real me out. Meaning, we all have a confident person inside, so it's not so much a matter of working to become a different person as it is dropping the current shy facade that is not really me. For example, I have found that I do not have to work at being happy. When I can stop worrying about things, or focusing on myself, happiness just happens. It's in me - I just have to let the fears go and it's there. The same thing seems to apply to being confident and outgoing - I just have to let that person out. I have a long way to go, and will probably never be a flaming extrovert (by choice, except perhaps in certain situations), but I can see that great progress has been made! ;D
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