My name is ..., and I am shy

[Ghost]

See! If the theraphist says so, I must be right! J/k. Every relationship should be based on friendship. How could two people have future if they don't have some kind of friendship between them? You have to like each other at different levels to appreciate and love eachother as lovers. And know each other. It wouldn't be pretty to find out later that the girl of your dreams was once a man, e.g. ;D

Too young? I didn't knew there still existed such a thing *cheeky grin* Esepcial with men...maybe you are behind at your time Cary Personal I can get that sometimes a age difference is too much. I wouldn't feel much for dating a person who would be younger them my children, or just about. I knew a woman who probably married her husband at a early age and got a daughter quite early, because she I about 42 and her daughter has a child of about 3 yrs. Her husband died, but now she has another guy, who is about 15 years younger and last time I checked she was trying to have more children... Perhaps she is so fond at her little grandaughter that she wanted to have her own little one again too. To be honest, the idea that her child would be younger than her granddaughter would not sit well by me. Family is supposed to be one of the stable support pillars of life. It should have some normalcy, compared to the rest of life. Besides, it would sound like some fiction I read with all kinds of tangled up family ties and bonds that I only want to read about, not experience. Just my opinion and rant

Yes Meg and your book...quite a coincidence . Rene I suppose is your wife? (For some reason starts to think of Rene Russo). Some of my family say I am not that quiet anymore (or something along those lines). That has nothing really to do with it. I was one of the youngest among my cousins, so I felt kind of left out, because of the age gap (even though it was only a couple of years). As adult, the odds are straighten even and they don't outwit me anymore.

Good to hear you had a grande progress and weekend (pardon the pun..I am pathetic like that ;D)

[CaryGrant]

Rene was a previous poster, not my wife! Better clarify that quickly.... Though if Rene Russo is reading this board and is interested, please contact me....

Thinking out loud now: Too young...it's all about maturity, really. Granted that age is no guarantee of wisdom, but it does seem unlikely that someone a lot younger could have the same level of wisdom as someone older who has been actively working on personal growth. I suppose that's not entirely fair; for example, I'm 42 and just now getting over shyness - someone raised differently or who started working on this earlier might never been shy or gotten over it in their teens.

Shyness/various related fears held me back in many areas of growth, so it seems possible that someone younger could be as mature. We shy people tend to be catching up to the rest of the world in some ways. Still, being shy resulted in a lot of introspection and studying of the world and people, so which in turn resulted in some knowledge that a younger person might not have.

Just babbling now. Besides, a younger woman would probably want to have kids, and I don't know that I would want more children. The ones I have are great and almost grown.

[spitzig]

I'm only 27, and I find a lot of women too immature for me. Life experience is generally what builds maturity, so some people can get a lot of maturity in shorter time. 20 generally seems too young for me.

[Ghost]

Oops...I almost gave you a new wife there! You could always write Rene Russo...but I am not sure if she would want to leave her husband and daughter for you. Still, good luck!

Maturity? Hmm. Well, so people never get mature, as you pointed out Cary. Most people in their 20's are far from mature and above 30 they seem to settle down more. Perhaps those 30-something people have families by then, with children and that more or less forces them to "grow up" and to have responsibility and be mature for the kids.

Someone younger can be mature, but I don't have too much faith in it. Stages of life, I suppose. I know someone in her 20's who is mother and considers herself a adult, but in meanwhile depends on others to solve her problems. She will probably get more mature with time, even if it is just that she has to for her kid.

I noticed that most 20-ers (that I know/knew anyway) have the attitude "you are only young once" and do whatever they want. Seems reasonable, if they knew their boundaries. And they don't always do. The law may find them adults, but they are not mature, responsible. I do think shy people are often more observant about what happens around them and something inside. Perhaps that causes a degree of maturity that is not likely to be found among their age, if they're young.

If I were you Cary, age 42 and already have children, I wouldn't be witing for anymore, to be honest. The idea that my kid would be 20 when I am in my 60's and might finally leave the home and care, isn't something I would want to do at my pension age. It's already hard enough to get 'em out of house before they're 30 And for now I am the kind of person who is "children are probably great...from a distant or from others".

[spitzig]

My opinion that maturity comes from life experience doesn't mean that it always does. Every experience has potential for maturing people, so more experiences would TEND to mean more maturity. I have an uncle(almost as old as my mother) who I might consider less mature than I am, though. High all the time--I remember him being too stoned to take his kids to school a few times. I also have known people younger than me, who I think are more mature than I am--that generally seems connected with kids. Being more concerned about others than oneself.

With Viagra, apparently, there's been a drastic increase in the number of people who are even 60+ having kids. Seems like a bad idea to be old enough they will probably die(based on the average age of death) before the kid is even an adult.

[Ghost]

When I read the start line of "With Viagra" I stopped to wonder if I missed something of a previous post, heh.

60+ and having kids? That is quite unnatural and should be traumatic and/or unhealthy for the kids in many ways. Just think of how you will bring a parent to school or the lies you have to tell to avoid telling your father is a "grandpa". Also, loosing your parent at early age, teasing by kids, seeing how young other parents are and able to do much more with their kids and walk around in open without being embrassed or avoiding to say " dad" in public... Doesn't apply for everyone, but it could happen.

(Ps, there was nothing to mdify about spitzig post, I accidental hit the modify button instead of the quote button and found out I messed up spitzig post with my msg when I already modified it. I changed spitzig post back to it's original state. My apology.)

[Jarous]

Well, what's natural? Life-expectancy of 80+ certainly isn't. But there's no changing it. Having children 20 years before your death doesn't sound that unnatural, though.
My mother was 17 when Iwas born and that's another extreme. I wonder how good a parent so young a woman can possibly become?

About telling your father 'grandpa,' I've seen pretty active, sportive and healthy 60-something and people in their 40s smoking, drinking, fat, dying of lung cancer etc. Age's relative, I wouldn't mind having an 'old' parent at all (his other traits remaining the same).

[Ghost]

Ok, I get your point about how natural things are. Let's say it's not "average" in that case. Still, I don't think it is healthy that people at that age have children (even animals have at some point impotence at their old age). If it happends, ok, accept it and enjoy it. With a bit of luck, they might even live long enough to be around for a grandchild(ren). But in many ways it is not wise to have children at that age.

I knew a girl who's grandmother was 16 when she had her mother and the girl's mother had her at 16 as well. I wouldn't suggest at that age to have children, it is early, but it has much less drawbacks compared to having children at the age of 80, e.g.

And yes, I know many older people are sometimes even more healthy and endurance then people of 20, as example. But I was taking it from a childs point of view. A negative pov, the " doom scenario". Not all kids are like that, I know and not all older fathers are like that either, as I wrote: a example of a worst case scenario.

I wouldn't have a problem with a older parent, I think. If it happens you don't know better and be alright with it.

[spitzig]

I don't see a problem with a parent being older, other than the average age of death. The older, the more mature; the younger, the more the parent can relate.

Someone's parents will probably die before they do. But, it seems like a major negative to not get to be an adult when your parents are alive. You don't get to go to them for any "adult advice". You don't get to relate to them as adults(for example, more as friends, not an authority figure).

[CaryGrant]

My therapist recently recommended a book on shame, and it turned out to be a very valuable read. Here's what the author says:

• Guilt, self-consciousness, embarrassment, and shyness can all be considered as having the same root - shame.
  
  
• Shyness is shame in the presence of others. A shy person feels unworthy of being with others.
  
  
• Shy people are afraid to look others in the eye because their shameful secrets or nature will be revealed.

I found all this to be very true in my case. Where the shame originally came from does not matter; no doubt it started in childhood and then becomes self-perpetuating. I have a good idea where my came from, but that doesn't help me get rid of it. The question is how to eliminate it?

It's all in the self-talk, which goes on so quickly that it can be hard to know what I'm saying to myself. Instead, I pay attention to my emotions, and recognize that those are indicators of self-talk. If I feel anxious about approaching an attractive woman, for example, or asking someone I would like as a friend to get together sometime, it's because I'm telling myself I am not worthy of these people, that if they really knew me they wouldn't like me, that they'll run away as soon as they find out who I really am, and so on.

When I notice these emotions, I immediately begin to dissect and counter them. Rather than simply accepting my emotions without question, I challenge them to see if they stand up to an objective look.

For example, suppose I want to ask some guy to get together, because I think we could be friends. I find myself feeling very anxious, fearful that he's going to reject my overtures.

• Worst case scenario: I'm really afraid that he's going to reject ME. But rationally, if he does reject my overtures of friendship, there could be many reasons. Perhaps he doesn't see the possibility for friendship that I do. Perhaps HE is very insecure and doesn't think he deserves me as a friend. Perhaps he's about to move out of the area. Perhaps his girlfriend won't let him make any friends and he's too much of a wienie to stand up to her. It's not a rejection of ME.
  
  
• Why am I worried about something that has not happened yet? Why not worry about the rejection if and when it happens? How am I helping myself worrying about things that haven't happened?
  
  
• So what if he does say no to friendship? Will I die on the spot? Have I not suffered rejections in the past, and survived? Hasn't everyone?
  
  
• What if he says yes? Why not assume that good things will happen, rather than bad? Or how about skipping assumptions altogether, and just see what happens?

In this way I try to bring my anxiety into the light and rationally think through why it is justified - or not, as is generally the case. The most important bullet is the first one, where I fear that any rejection is a rejection of ME, and this is where shame comes in. So here, my self-talk focuses on why a rejection of my overtures is not a rejection of me.

[Jarous]

Cary, all that you say is true.
Your 'self-talk challenge' sounds pretty admirable, but does it help? For me it doesn't. I can reason to no end but what I believe will not be affected by what I know to be true.

But let us hope we can change our mind and thought.
The only advice I can add is think what caused the first shame (you seem to know that) and try to persuade yourself that it was ridiculous in the first place and why.

CaryGrant said:

What if he says yes?

Couldn't this be waht we fear the most - at least part of the time? What then, what will I do/say/suggest...
It might help thinking out the encounter beforehand beyond the introduction stage.

[CaryGrant]

I recently realised that a significant contributor to my progress has been choosing different mirrors, and only allowing myself to put positive or objective interpretations on feedback.

Mirrors are people you see yourself reflected in, and often I have chosen to believe only the negative mirrors/people. At some point, I decided to believe the people who liked me and who I held in high regard, and this greatly helped me see myself in a better light.

Also, I would like to separate sex from relationship to an extent. Meaning, physical intimacy does not ONLY have to take place within the context of a committed relationship. Not that it's good to be sleeping around, but there is a balance, probably different for each individual, that allows one to be more relaxed about things....

Jarous - I agree, the "what if" fear is huge. And the therapist gives similar advice to yours - I'll send you a cheque . Namely, first think through'what if' scenarios, including the worst-case, and counter each one with more positive possibilities. Then, visualise yourself doing whatever it is.

But how do you "know" your negative self-talk to be true? Emotions are not reality, they are merely a reflection of your interpretation of reality. The purpose of challenging your self-talk is to show it to be biased. Step one, for me, was not to totally replace negative bias with positive, but to open myself up enough to...simply be open. Maybe I was being overly negative...don't know...so I'll try to be more of an observer in situations.

[gratitude]

Cary,

Just stumbled onto your diary and it looks like you've made lots of progress! I think it's wonderful that you've taken these steps to improve your shyness & self-esteem. And thanks also for sharing this with others.

[CaryGrant]

You're welcome, gratitude. Ha ha.

The old me would have said, "Oh, it's nothing, just my worthless ramblings." The new me says "You're welcome," and allows that others may find my diary useful - who am I to decide for them?

As mentioned in another thread, I recently stopped using self-deprecating humour, and it has made a significant difference in how others see me - and in how I see myself. Making the decision to NOT poke fun at myself, also seemed to make it harder for me to put myself down to myself, meaning in my self-talk. My brain didn't seem to know the difference between putting myself down to amuse others and puttting myself down for any reason.

The result has been that I do feel much better about myself. When I see certain people on this site posting about how hopeless their situation is, how things are only getting worse, what losers they are, how boring their life is - meaning meaningless - I see myself not so long ago. There are certainly still times or situations when I feel that things are not good. But my refusal to think negatively of myself has really turned things around. The change was not immediate, but over time - months, not years - it is quite visible. And this helps give me faith that even bigger changes are occurring!

Now, a couple of weeks ago, a shy friend invited me to her birthday "party" at a local restaurant. She is shy in some ways, but gets much better once she gets to know people. But she told me that if she liked a guy, she would never, never tell him, even if she knew him well - she would be petrified of rejection.

I met a young lady at her party, and she and I definitely clicked. Of course, she's leaving town for many months in mid-May. However, after a couple of weeks of trying to get my shy friend to set up a "random" encounter, I decided the heck with it, and asked my friend for the woman's number.

So today I got the number, and tonight I will call. Am I nervous - you betcha, even though the woman gave out her number knowing it was going to me and that I would call for a date. So, even though she's already pretty much said 'yes,' I'm still nervous. [Need a head-banging smiley.] However, I will not let myself NOT call. If it doesn't work out, if I mess it up - doesn't matter. The point is that I called and learned something in the process - and that I taught my brain that I can and will call women I'm attracted to.

This last is supremely important, because it means I'm reprogramming myself, I'm writing a new, non-shy script for my life.

[CaryGrant]

In the spirit of sharing the good and the bad, today is a "one-step-back" kind-of day (where others are two-steps-forward).

I am sad because I went out with the woman mentioned, and she turned me down for a second date...though I thought we both had a great time. I didn't expect it to work out or even go anywhere - she is leaving town soon and is much younger - but still, I suppose I got my hopes up.

Anyway, I am trying to focus on the positive - I did actually ask someone out rather than relying on internet personals, and she liked me - while also allowing myself to be sad that things did not work out. I think it's important not to suppress emotions, though also not to wallow in them. They are part of living, and also indicators of how I'm perceiving reality. Meaning, I created unduly high expectations for this woman, and would do better to try and stay more "in-the-moment."