Ok there is alot going on here but I'm picking up on this post because there is something I want to say about science. I was going to say it somewhere else but never finished.
Science is just a process, a discipline. A methodology for investigating the world around us. It is NOT a belief system. In the same way Expressionism is a style of painting, it is not an actual painting in itself. It does not say what the subject of the painting will be etc.
Science is not anti-religious. Indeed almost all great scientists have held very strong religious beliefs. Indeed it was their awe of the world given to them by God, their desire to discover more of this incredible creation of God's that lead them to study it in the first place. It was not trying to disprove God but to say look how marvellous God's work is. It was almost trying to prove that God exists because only a supreme being could possibly create such a supreme universe. Unfortunately what many discovered was that many things that were thought could only be explained by the presence of God, could actually be explained by other means or that their findings contradicted many religious 'facts'.
I think these are the two main reasons why so many people think science is opposed to religion is because there have been so many 'truths' about the world that were given by the holy men with their direct connection to God have been proved over the centuries to be a pile of bollocks. The sun orbiting the earth, how old the earth is etc etc. However that doesn't mean there isn't a God. Only that certain HUMAN religious beliefs were wrong.
And the other is that so many mysterious things that were previously attributed to Gods or supernatural beings have been explained by rigourous and thorough investigation to be something else. So now when a farmers crops fail, we don't believe it is punishment by God because we haven't sacrificed enough virgins but rather down to weather systems or the land isn't so fertile anymore due to over farming etc etc. Again that doesn't mean there isn't a God. It just means certain HUMAN religious beliefs were wrong.
The point is science or the scientific process helps us discover more about the universe which no other means of investigation could. It doesn't say whether there is a God or not. What we believe with the information we have is down to us. It is our own personal interpretation. Proper scientific investigation is neutral, it should only be about finding the truth. Whether that means God does or does not exist.
However people are not neutral. Many people use science as a tool to try and prove their own beliefs are true or that their opponents are false. This isn't wrong as long as their findings can be corroborated by others. The truth is the important thing. What is wrong however is to confuse the people, the scientists with the scientific process. It is also wrong to assume scientists are all atheists.
I think Thomas Huxley summed it up best:
"Science is nothing but trained and organized common sense, differing from the latter only as a veteran may differ from a raw recruit: and its methods differ from those of common sense only as far as the guardsman's cut and thrust differ from the manner in which a savage wields his club."
so lemmie address some questions here. just what the heck is faith anyway?
From dictionary.com:
faith Audio pronunciation of "faith" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Faith is where everyone else is saying one thing and One man says something different.
No that is disagreeing with a group. Having a different viewpoint to the majority. Maybe that one person has discovered something the others do not know. Maybe he has proof for his viewpoint. Maybe he is just trying to wind everyone up. Maybe he is lying. Maybe he is a con-artist. Maybe he is deluded.
faith is a keen mind ever observing the obvious that everyone else has overlooked. faith
the great detective walking in and immedietly spotting the one clue that hundreds
of forensic experts missed!
No that is being more observant than others.
i know *some (relogious) people* make it sound
mystical and magical but it is really just logic and common sense. apparently
a phd doesnt help as many atheists prove every day.
Make what sound mystical and magical? What is common sense and logical? Do you mean the presense of a God? It can make sense and it can be logical but that doesn't make it true. What do PHDs have to do with atheism? Are all educated people atheists? Are the only atheists educated? That is neither logical or sensible.
faith is one guy willing to set himself apart, to sally forth into the unknown,
and seek out the other side of the horizon!!! ahem.
No that is a lone explorer.
These are interesting analogies you are using. I wonder if they say more about you and how you think of yourself rather than the true nature of faith.
- once upon a time there was 'concrete' scientific evidence that the world was flat.
No there wasn't. As Tally Ho out, that is actually a fallacy. A misconception.
Even if it was believed it would more likely to be because of 'common sense and logic'. Put a cup on a flat table it stays there. Put it on an orange and the chances are it will fall off. Therefore the world must be flat or we would fall off. There you go, common knowledge or sense and all perfectly logical but untrue.
believe it or not....sometimes the facts dont tell the whole story! :-o esp if a
man's mind is already made up. And esp if youre only looking at one group of facts.
Exactly. That is what science is about. It is about thorough study and testing of all possible variables etc to produce evidence that is hopefully beyond doubt. It doesn't always work but it works better than making instant superficial judgements based on your gut instinct.
to derrick and russ. derrick is proof that you really have to keep an open mind
about spirituality.
Why is he proof? What does he prove? Do you understand the concept of proof?
im not saying i believe in reincarnation..... :S but i dont believe
its impossible either. THATS the adittude we must approach spirituality with.
all things are permissible but we must Test all things so as not to fall for
some religious dorkhead.(?) (dorkus?)
So you are saying we should be open minded but we should be completely dismissive of the atheistic view. And that science is crap but we should test things before believing them? That is basically science!!
They do however believe in little green men/women(?) (asexuals?)
What does the belief in aliens have to do with atheism? Not all atheists believe in aliens at all. That's just ridiculous. Mostly for the same reason. Except there is one difference. I am a life form so I have proof life forms can exist. I have no proof what so ever that Gods exist.
also derrick you’re damnn right ‘spirituality (long word to type) unites religion divides’ big big big difference there. One that atheists just cant seem to understand. No matter how much someone tries to tell them.
Lets suppose this is true which it isn't necessarily. What does this have to do with anything? What is the big point that it makes which atheists can't grasp? Maybe if you made sense they might have a better chance at understanding your point. If I believed that, how would my outlook on life change? Apart from the fact I would believe spirituality unites etc.
Scientifically, the fundimental laws of the universe exist as such: lets say you go to the top of the empire state building with 10 water-baloons. And you fill em up, and drop em. What happnens mr atheist? Or mr scientist? Or miss jennifer lopez? Whoa! Whered she come from??? But what happens? They fall to the ground. If you drop 100 water-ballons: they fall to the ground. If you drop 1000 or –lets get krazy!!!- 1,000,000! They still FALL TO THE GROUND!!!
Its this kind of elementary school logic that proves to anyone with ½ a brain (like me ). That the universe isnt as random as those cosmic level universal Gamblers that are masquerading scientists and dooming millions of unborn babies to die all over the world with their demented nonsense.
Yes and it is elementary logic that science has proven to be false time and again.
Scientists have never said that if you drop a balloon it won't fall. Have you ever heard of Physics before? Scientists look for the reasons why the balloons fall. They look beyond the superficial to try and find the deeper underlying reasons why things behave the way they do. For instance why does a water balloon fall differently to a feather? Why does a water balloon burst while a cannon ball doesn't etc. They would not make extrordinary claims about the entire universe based on one experiment with water balloons. This is because maybe they have a whole brain and realise the world is more complicated than that. Maybe it's not sexy or poetic but maybe they realise that the entire universe can't be summed up in one analogy. Maybe because they have a whole brain they can grasp complex ideas.
IF SCIENTISTS BELIEVED THERE WERE NO RULES, THAT EVERYTHING WAS JUST RANDOM, THEY WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO STUDY, THERE WOULD BE NO POINT, THERE WOULD BE NO SCIENCE.
That the universe isnt as random as those cosmic level universal Gamblers that are masquerading scientists and dooming millions of unborn babies to die all over the world with their demented nonsense.
What the hell are you talking about??!! What millions of babies? Who exactly is dying due to science? Why? what? when? and how? That is possibly one of the most insane statements I have ever read in my life. Not only that but you have the gall to complain about demented nonsense!!
the point of my water-baloon anology is this. According to scientists everything is just random events birds EVOLVED horses EVOLVED pigs EVOLVED. Basic flip of a coin roll the dice phenom. Roll the dice WE GOT APES! Roll again: HOT DAMNN! NEANDERTHALS! Ching ching ching ching chingggggg. Bou-yaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Uhhh ooo ah. victory dance over here!
I thought you said you have no knowledge of science? It's amazing then how much you claim to know. Especially as you claim it is demented nonsense.
Scientists do not claim that everything is random at all. If it was RANDOM it wouldn't be EVOLUTION. Try a dictionary. Also just because if it were true that scientists believed life was created randomly, that doesn't mean that they believe everything is random and therefore if you drop a water ballon it may not fall. That is simply an absurd thing to suggest.
Also not all scientists believe in evolution. Much about it is hotly contested between those who do.
And even if evolution is false, that doesn't mean that God exists. It just means that the theory of evolution is wrong. Why do religious people assume that not knowing or being able to prove an alternative means that God exists? It just means you don't have the answer.
Clearly im no better at being gods pr guy that those bible thumping bumpkins behind altars the world over. Clearly this is a job for a read:real scientist. Unfortunately none of the real scientists have given this even a moment of their attention. So between them and the thumpers, people remain largely either uninformed or unimpressed
Scientists haven't given what a moment of their attention? They haven't considered whether God exists?
So there are just scientists and bible thumpers? The world is that black and white? There is no division or disagreement within the two groups? You cannot be a scientist and hold religious beliefs?
My point is whether or not God exists is irrelevant
It's pretty relevant in a thread about whether God exists or not.
Plus if you say it is irrelevant why have you been so excited about atheism? You seem pretty determined for someone who doesn't care.
The universe -such as it is- has proven that as far as the basic laws of physics are concerned everything is exactly as it was meant to be!!!
How does it prove that? When you say things were meant to be then you are implying that there was a design to it. It's like saying well there is a cup so it proves that cup is meant to be that way. No it doesn't. It doesn't prove anything about how the cup was meant to be. It just says there is a cup. You could infer that the designer obviously wanted a handle because there is one but you don't know for sure what the handle was supposed to look like. It does not prove anything.
Also whether God does exist is pretty relevant. If the universe was designed by a supreme being then yes everything is the way it was supposed to be. If God does not exist then there is no meaning or design and therefore things arent they way the are supposed to be. Just the way they are.
Evolution isn’t as random as scientists believe in fact i believe we are not the product of evolution, but the originally intended outcome!!!! everything, the big bang evolution, gravity the earth EVERYTHING was specifically made and designed
You say evolution doesn't exist, then you say it was designed. Which is it?
EVERYTHING was specifically made and designed too produce and harvest SENTIENCE (gasp).
I really hope you are a troll, or just having a laugh. If not, feel free to explain.
The final question is this: if we were meant to be here what is is we are it we are supposed to be doing? Or: why are we Soooo dang important that god or evo. Or what ever moved everything into place just so that we could come into being??? Are we here to poloute? To suicide bom? To have abortions? To steal from each other? To murder? Or is their something very importan we should be doing?
Yes welcome to the meaning of life. An age old question. I thought you believed we were here so something can harvest sentience. I seem to remember an old PC game about aliens that did that. Anyway this is why whether there is a God or not is very relevant. If there is a God then ask him, there should be a reason why he made man et al. If not then there is no meaning except that which we create ourselves I guess.
She doesn't hesitate trying to ram her Wicca down other's throats tho.
