Why do bad things happen to good people?

[Sweet Pea]

naptaq said:

sweetpea said:

this is an interesting idea to toy with until you actually have really bad things happen to you, then you realize it's just a way for people to ignore those less fortunate and blame the victim. i think belief in this karma crap is just another form of calvinism in the western world. it's all about not having to do anything to help the less fortunate and feel okay about being well off while those around you are suffering imo.

Well I don't belive in the accidents crap, no offence. God does not throw the dice and say "Sorry George the dice feel off the table, i'm gonna make you stupid and ratarded and make you suffer."
And the other kid got lucky and was born into a rich family perfectly healthy, by accident.. yeah right.

I did not imply that we should not help the "less fortunate" people, however, the idea that you should feel guilty or something because you're better off than those who suffer is kinda ridicolus, to me anyway.

i'm not saying people should feel guilty...i'm saying people do feel guilty...and that believing that everyone who has serious problems in the world deserves that fate somehow makes them feel less guilt without having to actually do anything.

however, i will cop to the fact that i do feel that we should be teaching good world citizenship rather than strange convoluted religious practices...and if we did the world would be a better place. we should be teaching compassion...real compassion that compels people to actually do something to help. even in a wealthy country like the US, very few people make any real sacrifices for people who are unfortunate. people are born with defects that make their lives hell, people who suffer hideous accidents (yes, i do believe in accidents that can befall any of us), people who are victimized by criminals...are basically left to their own devices for the most part. the supposed 'social safety net' does not really exist. but you don't realize that until something bad happens to you or someone you care enough about to stick around through their whole ordeal and see what happens. personally i believe that volunteering should be a mandatory class in every public school. people should learn from an early age that those less fortunate need and deserve a hand up from their community.

[MrNice]

Well I don't belive in the accidents crap, no offence. God does not throw the dice and say "Sorry George the dice feel off the table, i'm gonna make you stupid and ratarded and make you suffer."
And the other kid got lucky and was born into a rich family perfectly healthy, by accident.. yeah right.

Why not?

[Naptaq]

sweetpea said:

however, i will cop to the fact that i do feel that we should be teaching good world citizenship rather than strange convoluted religious practices...and if we did the world would be a better place. we should be teaching compassion...real compassion that compels people to actually do something to help. even in a wealthy country like the US, very few people make any real sacrifices for people who are unfortunate. people are born with defects that make their lives hell, people who suffer hideous accidents (yes, i do believe in accidents that can befall any of us), people who are victimized by criminals...are basically left to their own devices for the most part. the supposed 'social safety net' does not really exist. but you don't realize that until something bad happens to you or someone you care enough about to stick around through their whole ordeal and see what happens. personally i believe that volunteering should be a mandatory class in every public school. people should learn from an early age that those less fortunate need and deserve a hand up from their community.

I agree.

[annaa]

sweetpea said:

this is an interesting idea to toy with until you actually have really bad things happen to you, then you realize it's just a way for people to ignore those less fortunate and blame the victim. i think belief in this karma crap is just another form of calvinism in the western world. it's all about not having to do anything to help the less fortunate and feel okay about being well off while those around you are suffering imo.

I wasn't getting at that...
It's difficult to explain really, because my belief in karma only stretches so far. There is a cut off point where I think 'You know what, this really is bad news - this definately was not deserved (in the karma sense)'.

Also I argree that people shouldn't ignore those less fortunate than themselves. I believe that people should always help others if they can.

Meh. This really is such a 'grey area'.

[Astroruss]

annaa said:

sweetpea said:

this is an interesting idea to toy with until you actually have really bad things happen to you, then you realize it's just a way for people to ignore those less fortunate and blame the victim. i think belief in this karma crap is just another form of calvinism in the western world. it's all about not having to do anything to help the less fortunate and feel okay about being well off while those around you are suffering imo.

I wasn't getting at that...
It's difficult to explain really, because my belief in karma only stretches so far. There is a cut off point where I think 'You know what, this really is bad news - this definately was not deserved (in the karma sense)'.

Also I argree that people shouldn't ignore those less fortunate than themselves. I believe that people should always help others if they can.

Meh. This really is such a 'grey area'.

Of course it is. Our world is a very grey place.

[HybridMoment]

sweetpea said:

personally i believe that volunteering should be a mandatory class in every public school. people should learn from an early age that those less fortunate need and deserve a hand up from their community.

Mandatory volunteerism is an oxymoron. To have it required in public schools (more schools are actually requiring it for graduation) borders on being unconstitutional involuntary servitude. Schools are fine encouraging altruism, but they step over the line when they try to enforce it.

[Astroruss]

hybridmoment said:

sweetpea said:

personally i believe that volunteering should be a mandatory class in every public school. people should learn from an early age that those less fortunate need and deserve a hand up from their community.

Mandatory volunteerism is an oxymoron. To have it required in public schools (more schools are actually requiring it for graduation) borders on being unconstitutional involuntary servitude. Schools are fine encouraging altruism, but they step over the line when they try to enforce it.

I never thought about it that way before.

I know colleges are requiring more volunteering hours for students on scholarship or honors program degrees. And hell, academic establishments are getting to that point too for people seeking work. If you haven't volunteered and worked for free, they don't even look at your resume, or seriously consider it.

Hell, volunteering is fine, but requiring it for a job or school is just getting absurd.

For my scholarship program when i was an undergrad, we had to do 10 service hours a semester. Fine, that was okay. I was an altar server at our church every week, so i applied that toward the service hours.

Then, when i applied for my first grad program, again, they wanted to know about service hours. I had enough service hours from the church that it wasn't a problem.

Then i start applying for jobs in the MIS field and Academic Librarian field, and they want service hours. Geez! What do volunteer hours have to do with an employee's competency and ability to do the job?

I've done quite a bit of volunteering in my day, and, save for my work with the church, none of seemed worthwhile. Now it just seems getting out of control, being almost a requirement for jobs nowadays.

It really is getting to where they expect you to work for free nowadays.

[Sweet Pea]

hybridmoment said:

sweetpea said:

personally i believe that volunteering should be a mandatory class in every public school. people should learn from an early age that those less fortunate need and deserve a hand up from their community.

Mandatory volunteerism is an oxymoron. To have it required in public schools (more schools are actually requiring it for graduation) borders on being unconstitutional involuntary servitude. Schools are fine encouraging altruism, but they step over the line when they try to enforce it.

i'm not talking about a forced march across the arctic. i'm talking about getting credit for taking a class that teaches why we should volunteer in our community the kinds of things that we can get involved in as volunteers...basically get the idea of volunteering in the community on kids' radar from a young age. the teacher could have community volunteers come in to speak to the students about the work they do, take students on field trips to witness volunteers in action, help students figure out what type of volunteer work they would enjoy, help them form work parties to do group projects they would like to do, etc. even though it would be mandatory to take the class (in my world , there obviously wouldn't be enforced labor. i'm pretty sure if you started this process in elementary school, no force would be necessary.

[pnoopiepnats]

hybridmoment said:

Mandatory volunteerism is an oxymoron. To have it required in public schools (more schools are actually requiring it for graduation) borders on being unconstitutional involuntary servitude. Schools are fine encouraging altruism, but they step over the line when they try to enforce it.

There are plenty of things that are required in life so I don't really see what the problem is.

I do think it should be required in elementary school and up. People are so damn selfish these days that it needs to be taught. I think they should bring back charm school and etiquette classes too.

If these things are done early in someone's life they will probably continue it later in life too.

[HybridMoment]

I don't have a problem with volunteerism as long as it actually is voluntary. There are plenty of volunteer opportunities that parents can have their kids participate in a situation where it is not required.

I live in a free country, and I think people should have the freedom to not participate in something if they don't want to [This includes volunteering, military service...] The community I live in is actually very centered around volunteering, I can hardly think of a time when some kind of charitable function is not going on (some I have even participated in). I also think it should be up to parents to instill values in their children, not public schools.

[Sweet Pea]

hybridmoment said:

I don't have a problem with volunteerism as long as it actually is voluntary. There are plenty of volunteer opportunities that parents can have their kids participate in a situation where it is not required.

I live in a free country, and I think people should have the freedom to not participate in something if they don't want to [This includes volunteering, military service...] The community I live in is actually very centered around volunteering, I can hardly think of a time when some kind of charitable function is not going on (some I have even participated in). I also think it should be up to parents to instill values in their children, not public schools.

the only problem is most kids spend so much of their time in the public schools...and as a result they do learn much of their values there. presently way more time is spent nurturing competitiveness in US schools than any kind of real community spirit.

[Astroruss]

sweetpea said:

hybridmoment said:

I don't have a problem with volunteerism as long as it actually is voluntary. There are plenty of volunteer opportunities that parents can have their kids participate in a situation where it is not required.

I live in a free country, and I think people should have the freedom to not participate in something if they don't want to [This includes volunteering, military service...] The community I live in is actually very centered around volunteering, I can hardly think of a time when some kind of charitable function is not going on (some I have even participated in). I also think it should be up to parents to instill values in their children, not public schools.

the only problem is most kids spend so much of their time in the public schools...and as a result they do learn much of their values there. presently way more time is spent nurturing competitiveness in US schools than any kind of real community spirit.

Eh, I don't know about that, Pea.

I attended both public and private school for many years, and i still am to this day. It seems to me that both kind of environments work to produce acompetitive and participatory way for their students.

In public shool, kids get into sports and academic clubs, both for fun and for participation. Kids join these groups to be part of a group, a unit or cliche, i suppose. Certainly in sports and academic clubs like Spanish and BPA students learn to be competitive as well, in the process enhancing their own skills. But they also learn to work as a group as well as a unit.

In high school, i was part of the High School Band, and while we performed and exercised and practiced much of our time, we also would participate in car washes and book drives, the proceeds of which would half of the time might go a charity organization of some kind, sometimes also to fill a fund void needed for some sort of service in the bandhall or school.

I'd also go out with my friends and join in their church activites, the majority of which were Protestant, but the faith of any kid wishing to participate was not important. I remember on one occasion we went to a nursing home nearby, one that was experiencing a labor shortage for nurses and orderlies. We gathered up much of the laundry, washed it, and also took out their trash and did other misc tasks for them.

I also very vividly remember Jump Rope For Heart in elementary school. That was a sports/health activity also geared towards raising money for medical reserach into cardiovacular problems, i believe. Hence the name.

[Sweet Pea]

superruss said:

sweetpea said:

the only problem is most kids spend so much of their time in the public schools...and as a result they do learn much of their values there. presently way more time is spent nurturing competitiveness in US schools than any kind of real community spirit.

Eh, I don't know about that, Pea.

I attended both public and private school for many years, and i still am to this day. It seems to me that both kind of environments work to produce acompetitive and participatory way for their students.

In public shool, kids get into sports and academic clubs, both for fun and for participation. Kids join these groups to be part of a group, a unit or cliche, i suppose. Certainly in sports and academic clubs like Spanish and BPA students learn to be competitive as well, in the process enhancing their own skills. But they also learn to work as a group as well as a unit.

In high school, i was part of the High School Band, and while we performed and exercised and practiced much of our time, we also would participate in car washes and book drives, the proceeds of which would half of the time might go a charity organization of some kind, sometimes also to fill a fund void needed for some sort of service in the bandhall or school.

I'd also go out with my friends and join in their church activites, the majority of which were Protestant, but the faith of any kid wishing to participate was not important. I remember on one occasion we went to a nursing home nearby, one that was experiencing a labor shortage for nurses and orderlies. We gathered up much of the laundry, washed it, and also took out their trash and did other misc tasks for them.

I also very vividly remember Jump Rope For Heart in elementary school. That was a sports/health activity also geared towards raising money for medical reserach into cardiovacular problems, i believe. Hence the name.

you must have had some special people in your school who were very public minded. this is not what i and my family have found in the public schools in the places we have lived. i think most school-aged kids who get involved with volunteer activities are either introduced to it through their families, or doing it to raise money for their own activities, or doing it because they're special kinda people who care about others naturally. i'm talking about a comprehensive effort to teach compassion and purposeful community action to all school kids...to making it a normal part of life from an early age for everybody. anyways, this is my ideal, nobody has to agree with me...cuz i'm not likely to take over the world anytime soon.

[gaz]

It's called 'sod's law'....But i also believe in Karma.

[Sweet Pea]

does everyone who believes in karma believe that they did something in a past life to deserve the misery of social anxiety? and if so, why should anybody care about you? just wondering...