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Post by Naptaq on Jun 22, 2008 13:07:50 GMT -5
My hypothesis for this happening, in dating, is that a lot of the times guys are too interested in getting a girl, like they're basing their life on a girl and women don't find that appealing. Who can blame them? Of course what I'm talking about is in the context of a normal date, or getting a date rather. I've heard one buddhist monk once say that when you're alone, you've got loneliness problems, and when you're in a reletionship you've got reletionship problems. I think that's certianly true, but I already hear people say "Oh I prefer the other 'problem'!" One of my goals is that I get at least content with myself, so that a relationship is not a must, because I'm already OK with myself. It's like "If I get the girl, great, if not that's great too" Then, one can only win. This article inspired this post: dating.personals.yahoo.com/singles/datingtips/85967/dating-secret-exposed-why-nice-guys-finish-last;_ylc=X3oDMTRtc21iZW9sBF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEX3MDMjAyMzQzNDQ4OQRrA0RhdGluZyBTZWNyZXQgRXhwb3NlZCAtIFdoeSBOaWNlIEd1eXMgRmluaXNoIExhc3QEc2VjA2ZwX3RvZGF5BHNsawNkYXRpbmctc2VjcmV0IC1leHBvc2VkIC0gd2h5LW5pY2UgLWd1eXMtZmluaXNoLWxhc3QEenoDYQ--
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Post by Sweet Pea on Jun 22, 2008 13:42:37 GMT -5
...when you're alone, you've got loneliness problems, and when you're in a reletionship you've got reletionship problems... so true. but i hate that article and all articles like them. i've spent the past 7 years dodging guys who are obviously NOT nice, even though i do get lonely. they are not only not nice, they've thought they could buy me and/or manipulate me into a relationship...or we just plain didn't have anything in common. i'm holding out for a REAL nice guy...one who will treat me with respect, one who will give me just as much positive attention as i give him. and it's probably gonna be a guy who doesn't have internet access judging by the kinda crap guys read/see online.
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Post by Bodhi on Jun 22, 2008 16:02:56 GMT -5
My thinking is girls do seem to gravitate towards guys that are more confident and less available and more exciting, over 'nice' guys who are always around, pay them too much attention, or just seem more on the boring side. Yet, this is only in the initial dating phase, and once the girl is in a steady relationship with a guy, they usually prefer him to be available and nice and doting on her. So, I guess 'nice' guys need to act more confident and exciting to get a girl interested, and then once in the relationship, can revert back to their nice guy ways.
Yet, this is a generalization, and there are many exceptions and girls that think differently. On the whole though, the more confident, seemingly exciting, strong, doesn't need someone type of guy is going to have ten times more dates than the boring, unconfident, overally nice, life rides upon getting a girlfriend guy.
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Post by Sweet Pea on Jun 22, 2008 16:05:31 GMT -5
Why "Nice Guys" are often such LOSERS You hear it all the time: "He was such a NICE Guy, and she's such a Heartless Bitch for dumping him." I get letters from self-professed Nice Guys, complaining that women must WANT to be treated like shit, because THEY, the "Nice Guy" have failed repeatedly in relationships. This is akin to the false logic that "Whales are mammals. Whales live in the sea. Therefore, all mammals live in the sea." If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it. What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him. Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that gets attracted to them is the lowest form of life... Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure. Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date". They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them. They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him. Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one. Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner. Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here." The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn't mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?" More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip! Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results. This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like themselves. Is it any wonder women don't like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love". Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN'T SEXY. IT'S A TURNOFF. You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible. www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml
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Post by malcom72 on Jun 22, 2008 18:57:13 GMT -5
Why "Nice Guys" are often such LOSERS You hear it all the time: "He was such a NICE Guy, and she's such a Heartless Bitch for dumping him." I get letters from self-professed Nice Guys, complaining that women must WANT to be treated like shit, because THEY, the "Nice Guy" have failed repeatedly in relationships. This is akin to the false logic that "Whales are mammals. Whales live in the sea. Therefore, all mammals live in the sea." If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it. What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him. Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that gets attracted to them is the lowest form of life... Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure. Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date". They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them. They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him. Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one. Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner. Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here." The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn't mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?" More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip! Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results. This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like themselves. Is it any wonder women don't like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love". Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN'T SEXY. IT'S A TURNOFF. You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible. www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml Hey sweet pea don't hold back. Tell us how you REALLY feel. ;D
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gaia
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Post by gaia on Jun 22, 2008 19:26:10 GMT -5
Most "nice girls" are just as guilty of the things that the "nice guy" is (being insecure, basing their life around getting/keeping a boyfriend etc.). Yet nobody seems to be getting a complex/writing an article about that... why? I think Sweetpea has pretty much nailed it with her posts.. so the only other thing I will add to the table is this.. It pisses me off that people (including me) are made to feel like the only valuable relationship they can have in life is a romantic one. There is so much importance on having a boyfriend/girlfriend. Almost like your whole life is leading up to, and will forever revolve around, a romantic sexual relationship. It's like your friends/family/co-workers etc. aren't really important. The opinions they have on you/your general worth in life don't really count.. I mean who gives a shit how much your dog loves you?! You can't marry him! If people could just be happier with the non-sexual companionships they have in their lives, and maybe see romance as an added bonus, all of this bullshit wouldn't even matter. These kind of articles and unwritten social laws could just be seen as the nonsense that they truly are.
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Post by Naptaq on Jun 22, 2008 20:02:17 GMT -5
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gaia
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Post by gaia on Jun 22, 2008 20:13:48 GMT -5
The first article is good. The second is about being a "smart girl", which wasn't really what I was talking about (though as the "smart girl" in school, I know how that feels). The times I have spoke to guys i've been told that I am someone they want to protect... I 'seem so innocent'.. one time I was even told that I had an ability to bring out a "fatherly" side in men. None of that is really something that points to much chance of a sexual relationship, is it? I think i'm just as entitled to be pissy about the "nice girl" thing as some are about the "nice guy" thing.
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Post by pnoopiepnats on Jun 22, 2008 20:56:23 GMT -5
Most "nice girls" are just as guilty of the things that the "nice guy" is (being insecure, basing their life around getting/keeping a boyfriend etc.). Yet nobody seems to be getting a complex/writing an article about that... why? I think Sweetpea has pretty much nailed it with her posts.. so the only other thing I will add to the table is this.. It pisses me off that people (including me) are made to feel like the only valuable relationship they can have in life is a romantic one. There is so much importance on having a boyfriend/girlfriend. Almost like your whole life is leading up to, and will forever revolve around, a romantic sexual relationship. It's like your friends/family/co-workers etc. aren't really important. The opinions they have on you/your general worth in life don't really count.. I mean who gives a shit how much your dog loves you?! You can't marry him! If people could just be happier with the non-sexual companionships they have in their lives, and maybe see romance as an added bonus, all of this bullshit wouldn't even matter. These kind of articles and unwritten social laws could just be seen as the nonsense that they truly are. People do get a lot of status and positive strokes for having a romantic relationship. I think when people are really young they feel that have to have one to be acceptable. Later, on many realize while nice to have, you won't die without one. After my divorce, I was fairly content in just being the crazy cat lady but then the guy came along with the romantic relationship and it just worked out that way.
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Post by Bodhi on Jun 22, 2008 22:10:52 GMT -5
Most "nice girls" are just as guilty of the things that the "nice guy" is (being insecure, basing their life around getting/keeping a boyfriend etc.). Yet nobody seems to be getting a complex/writing an article about that... why? Because those attributes, being insecure and overally nice, are in fact attractive to many guys. Yet, they are not attractive to most girls when they see them in a guy. Its much easier for a 'nice girl' to get a boyfriend than for a 'nice guy' to get a girlfriend. That's actually a very interesting point. I don't know why, at least in our society, it seems people put most of their meaning in life into having a romantic partner. Its definitely seen as the pinnacle of life for many people. I admit I put way too much meaning in it, and feel my life is missing a huge piece for not having a significant other. I don't really have a logical reason for placing that much meaning into it, but its still there in my mind. Maybe I have been brainwashed by society, romantic relationships are everywhere: music, movies, television. If you are single its always seen as a negative and something that has to be changed. I wish I could not think about it as much as I do, but its always there in the back of my mind. I'm not sure why society has developed to place such ultimate importance on having a romantic partner though.
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Post by corruptedheart on Jun 22, 2008 22:20:33 GMT -5
Why "Nice Guys" are often such LOSERS You hear it all the time: "He was such a NICE Guy, and she's such a Heartless Bitch for dumping him." I get letters from self-professed Nice Guys, complaining that women must WANT to be treated like shit, because THEY, the "Nice Guy" have failed repeatedly in relationships. This is akin to the false logic that "Whales are mammals. Whales live in the sea. Therefore, all mammals live in the sea." If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it. What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him. Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that gets attracted to them is the lowest form of life... Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure. Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date". They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them. They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him. Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one. Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner. Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here." The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn't mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?" More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip! Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results. This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like themselves. Is it any wonder women don't like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love". Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN'T SEXY. IT'S A TURNOFF. You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible. www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml Umm....are you okay? ;D But, regardless of flaws in certain people, I'd like to think they have the ability to change.
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Post by Sweet Pea on Jun 22, 2008 23:00:02 GMT -5
i'm fine. ;D i just thought you guys would...um...enjoy that article. i know how you feel, anna. people are constantly making it clear to me that they think i'm inferior or something's wrong with me cuz i'm not married. i've had plenty of men over the years make wise cracks about how i can't find a man who'll put up with me, etc etc, blah blah blah, yada yada yada. {haha very funny, you're a real card.}
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Post by MrNice on Jun 22, 2008 23:55:21 GMT -5
its very simple in my opinion we are pretty much wired to try to have children, and all the romantic relationship stuff just revolves around that - in all societies, no matter where you go people want to fall in love get married start a family etc etc - whether through arranged marriage, a harem, or 'real love' - its all just a spin on the core desire
as far as people in our society putting value in things - its only secondary to what makes you feel lonely if you are really honest with yourself you will realize that you do long for romantic company and simple to connect with people no matter what anyone says - without going into all the advanced concepts of shyness introverted, niceness or values
you can't make it go away - I suggest just accepting it.
you are still thinking about this in terms of strategy - what is the correct sequence of steps you need to take in order to get that one particular girl that is not interested in you to become interested. Its just not going to happen. Yes - nice guys do finish last. Because they don't place any value in themselves. It always comes down to some strategy to convince or trick a girl to like him.
For some reason it never crosses the guy's mind that in a relationship that works the girl also puts in effort to get the guy. If you can't think of yourself as a guy that a girl would actually like to get then you will finish last.
Of course when you do place value in yourself you automatically become less available, less obsessive and confident - all those things that make you less nice
Its always the same story - guy gets a crush on a girl. And she had the same exact amount of time to get to know him but does not feel the same way. Its over at this point. But to the 'nice guy' its only the beginning - now that I have a crush how do I make this girl like me?
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gaia
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Post by gaia on Jun 23, 2008 0:16:38 GMT -5
its very simple in my opinion we are pretty much wired to try to have children, and all the romantic relationship stuff just revolves around that - in all societies, no matter where you go people want to fall in love get married start a family etc etc - whether through arranged marriage, a harem, or 'real love' - its all just a spin on the core desire We are wired to be sociable - not just romantically. In this day and age a sense of community and looking out for eachother has been lost. Now that the essential things are so easily available that you can survive on your own, the need for everyone to play a part in their community has long gone. Lonliness and the (what seems like urgent) need for romantic attention is a modern problem, in my opinion. I can't help but feel that if people re-gained that sense of "I have a place amongst these people.. I am needed to do X so that everyone can have and enjoy Y", the whole romance thing would be less important. Its always the same story - guy gets a crush on a girl. And she had the same exact amount of time to get to know him but does not feel the same way. Its over at this point. But to the 'nice guy' its only the beginning - now that I have a crush how do I make this girl like me? What if he's shy, and didn't say much to her? What if he was one of these "nice guys" who just listened? Do you think she really got to know him properly? You can't say something's over before it's even began.
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Post by pnoopiepnats on Jun 23, 2008 4:47:28 GMT -5
Nice guys really aren't that nice.
I can't help but think maybe this is sour grapes wrt relationships that if you were in one, you wouldn't be writing about not being in one and why it's so important.
Mr. Nice said it by people who truly don't believe they would actually get someone to like them for them resort to tricks or whatever to try to trick he un interested person into liking them.
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