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Post by deadendphilosopher on Apr 19, 2006 9:35:22 GMT -5
Maybe very wealthy Americans don't benefit from it, but if people have to pay more for goods, doesn't that make their money have less value? I think a lot of people would be unhappy if they weren't able to buy as much with their money.
Also, I will admit I don't know much about economics, but if the eonomy benefits from the cheap labor of illegals, doesn't that mean that Americans benefit in some ways? I mean when the economy is down (a drastic example is the Great Depression), doesn't that put people out of work and produce all kinds of negative side effects? I don't think it is right to exploit illegal immigrants wether they're illegal or not, but it seems hard to deny that the majority of Americans don't benefit from their being here.
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Post by wagnerr on Apr 19, 2006 12:32:22 GMT -5
Maybe very wealthy Americans don't benefit from it, but if people have to pay more for goods, doesn't that make their money have less value? I think a lot of people would be unhappy if they weren't able to buy as much with their money. Also, I will admit I don't know much about economics, but if the eonomy benefits from the cheap labor of illegals, doesn't that mean that Americans benefit in some ways? I mean when the economy is down (a drastic example is the Great Depression), doesn't that put people out of work and produce all kinds of negative side effects? I don't think it is right to exploit illegal immigrants wether they're illegal or not, but it seems hard to deny that the majority of Americans don't benefit from their being here. People don't have to buy goods, that's why it's called a free market.  I admit that some prices hurt people and there's not too many ways around it. Like gas prices, although there are a few options to curb consumption. When prices go up, that's the market's signal that consumption needs to drop temporarily, so prices will level out. Most consumers by and large don't drop their consumption, so prices go up across the board periodically. It also does not matter if the illegal immigrants are here or not, producing cheap goods, because by and large the American suppliers buy from abroad, like in China and Mexico, and now India and Pakistan. Most textiles are produced in the international market, as are many high tech commodities. With the US, a lot of food and raw materials are still produced here, yes. But how many of us buy raw materials? Shipping theoretically would increase the price of goods, except that foreign manufacturers largely dump their prices below production costs, which is illegal under international law. But countries like Japan and China have been doing it for decades now. So having from an economic standpoint, having illegals work here matters very little to the Americand domestic economy. It might bring about some drop in prices for some commodities, like services, but not manufactured goods, which is what a lot of people buy. |
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Post by wagnerr on Apr 19, 2006 12:40:47 GMT -5
Maybe very wealthy Americans don't benefit from it, but if people have to pay more for goods, doesn't that make their money have less value? I think a lot of people would be unhappy if they weren't able to buy as much with their money. Also, I will admit I don't know much about economics, but if the eonomy benefits from the cheap labor of illegals, doesn't that mean that Americans benefit in some ways? I mean when the economy is down (a drastic example is the Great Depression), doesn't that put people out of work and produce all kinds of negative side effects? I don't think it is right to exploit illegal immigrants wether they're illegal or not, but it seems hard to deny that the majority of Americans don't benefit from their being here. Oh, i've been meaning to ask you. what does your name mean?  |
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Post by deadendphilosopher on Apr 27, 2006 18:01:56 GMT -5
Russman!!!! : I guess my name means that I spend a lot of time thinking about spiritually philosophical things, but my logic can only go so far. A lot of times I just come to a dead end in my thinking, and I often wonder if there is really an intellectual answer, or even an answer at all. You have no idea how frusterating it is!
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Post by christfollower on Apr 30, 2006 4:07:38 GMT -5
Well, my sympathy is starting to turn. The thought of renaming the Nation Anthem to "Our Anthem" translating it into spanish and then rewording it, just does something to me. I find that they are going to far in their approach to winning sympathetic people to help them.
As far as working cheap and taking jobs that Americans do not want - I am starting to hear reports that show the majority is not this way. $20.00 an hour for construction, one found in a Nuclear Reactor plant working behind the computers? Wow, just what we need - undocumented or illegal documents getting jobs that can cause real havic in our country.
Still, how do we go about changing this with out it starting another spanish-american war "how ever small it would be". There will be a retaliation by the hispanic population. It is peaceful right now, but what would it take to change that. There are alot of things that we have to look at.
I personaly agree with a wall, but how long will it take and how much money. Though it is true that we have a lot of illegals coming in from the Canadian border too. There is a lot of land to cover - are we going to be like the USSR if we build the wall?
Just some thoughts.
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Post by wagnerr on May 1, 2006 12:49:11 GMT -5
I don't see the govt building a wall; nope, there are far more subtle methods of curbing illegal immigration and smuggling than that. Increased electronic surveillance of the border, along with drones, would do the trick, curbing both problems. I, too, am bothered by all the pro-immigrant rallies going on all over the country. What do they think they're doing flying Mexican flags in these rallies?  That's crazy! And it's not helping anything either.  By holding these rallies, i think the hispanics are hurting themselves more than helping their fellow humans. You would never dare fly an American flag in Mexico; that could get you arrested, unless you work for the embassy there. So what's with alll this foreign flag flying? Go ahead and let them hold these rallies; they're just shooting themselves in the foot by doing so. What do they think they're gonna accomplish this way? They might get all the hispanics riled up in a mob frenzy, and that'll get people killed! Besides, anyone who knows Mexican philosophy knows to live life silently and passively. I think it was Octavio Paz who sad," Respecto por el derecho es la paz." This being said, the hispanics are not helping themselves at all by holding these mob rallies all over the country, and will only bring about harsh consequences on themselves as a result. I think might go out and show my contempt for the mobs by buying some goods today, maybe lunch too. Screw their boycott! ;D |
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Post by christfollower on May 1, 2006 23:00:52 GMT -5
Increased electronic surveillance of the border, along with drones, would do the trick, curbing both problems. How well can this really help - how is a surveillance camera or drone going to help when there is so much land to cover. Even if a drone or stationary camera shows one crossing will there actually be someone to see it on that camerae and can they get border patrol to respond fast enough - that is to say if they even have someone close enough to respond. Thoughts? |
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Post by skyhint on May 1, 2006 23:51:15 GMT -5
By holding these rallies, i think the hispanics are hurting themselves more than helping their fellow humans. You would never dare fly an American flag in Mexico; that could get you arrested, unless you work for the embassy there. So what's with alll this foreign flag flying? .... WTF being arrested for flying a flag? Im sure that doesn't happen in Mexico |
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Post by wagnerr on May 2, 2006 12:09:35 GMT -5
By holding these rallies, i think the hispanics are hurting themselves more than helping their fellow humans. You would never dare fly an American flag in Mexico; that could get you arrested, unless you work for the embassy there. So what's with alll this foreign flag flying? .... WTF being arrested for flying a flag? Im sure that doesn't happen in Mexico Then you've never been to Mexico, have you? |
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Post by wagnerr on May 2, 2006 12:12:58 GMT -5
Increased electronic surveillance of the border, along with drones, would do the trick, curbing both problems. How well can this really help - how is a surveillance camera or drone going to help when there is so much land to cover. Even if a drone or stationary camera shows one crossing will there actually be someone to see it on that camerae and can they get border patrol to respond fast enough - that is to say if they even have someone close enough to respond. Thoughts? It may not, i don't know. All i'm saying is that there are alternatives to a wall across the southern border, which i think is a ridiculous idea anyways. Besides, the US is part of NAFTA, and a physical barrier of this type would impede trade between US and Latin America, something that we really don't need to happen. The USAF is developing automated drones for recon, and i see no reason why they couldn't be deployed along political boundaries for security. Walls are things of the past. |
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Post by skyhint on May 2, 2006 16:38:50 GMT -5
Then you've never been to Mexico, have you? Twice, the people there seem easy going. Its mexico! its not a rigid place. |
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Post by wagnerr on May 2, 2006 19:13:15 GMT -5
Then you've never been to Mexico, have you? Twice, the people there seem easy going. Its mexico! its not a rigid place. Read between the lines, and you'll see the country as what it is, a poor backward place of oppression, one that only now is emerging from the oppressive regulatory statutes of the PRI, to adjust to another oppression in the form of the PAN. Say you were to fly a foriegn flag in mexico, you would at least get a fine for doing so. More, due to the police corruption, you may also be hauled off to jail because you are an indirect threat to the 'public saftey' and pay even heavier 'fines' as a result. The law might say one thing; i care not. Look at what occurs there, and you'll get a sense of the practicality of it all. And it has nothing to do with the majority of the people at all. I'm not attacking them, only the Mexican political traditions. |
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Post by christfollower on May 3, 2006 3:57:15 GMT -5
It may not, i don't know. All i'm saying is that there are alternatives to a wall across the southern border, which i think is a ridiculous idea anyways. Besides, the US is part of NAFTA, and a physical barrier of this type would impede trade between US and Latin America, something that we really don't need to happen. The USAF is developing automated drones for recon, and i see no reason why they couldn't be deployed along political boundaries for security. Walls are things of the past. How are walls a thing of the past? NAFTA has gone to pot since American companies are now moving to India and Pakastan. There are just a handful of intrest left in Mexico. NAFAT really now only helps Amercia with Canada which is Canada's benifit not America's. So this really isn't an issue anymore. The question is - Why spend a lot of money investing in automated drones when they can not stop the Mexicans from crossing the borders? There are thousands that cross the borders in underground tunnels. What we need are workers to constantly check for tunnels being dug. The wall should be an electric fence with constatine wire at the top. The fence would then have several wires run through it in case it was cut to alert border patrol of a potential illegal crossing and have the same sytem spike into the ground for tunneling or digging under the fence. Then all we we need are manned outpost every so many miles. Or as I have heard on the news to go after companies that hire illegals and impose large hefty fines on them. Once the illegal immagrants realize that they can not get a job or welfare then they will go home on their own. Either way I am starting not to care. |
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Post by MrNice on May 3, 2006 9:04:58 GMT -5
I don't know - you can force everything, but whenever there is large demand, such things still find their way through the system. Government officials can be bought too. Thats the way of life in russia. You have to pay your way through all these ridiculous laws and beurocracy to get things done. For example its illegal to live in Moscow without permit - yet all the cheap labor workers come from other countries and find a way to settle there.
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Post by deadendphilosopher on May 3, 2006 14:33:27 GMT -5
Building a wall is a ridiculous solution! I thought the point of stopping Mexican immigration was to help the economy, not spend millions or billions (I have no idea how much a wall would cost, but I know it would be a huge amount of money) of U.S. dollars. And would a wall really keep Mexicans out? I don't think so.
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That's crazy! And it's not helping anything either. 
