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Post by MrNice on Mar 28, 2006 0:39:59 GMT -5
scotty is mistaken
I undestand what he means by faith
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Post by GreenFerret on Mar 28, 2006 0:40:52 GMT -5
[...]to save everyone who has faith in Him from an eternal death (hell) that is too horrific for even the sickest human mind to ever imagine So the all-powerful, all-knowing God allowed Satan to come into existence, and allowed him to create the most horrific, torturous existence ever possible. That's not love. So God knowingly allows people to be born who he is 100% certain are going to suffer torture more horrible than anything they can possibly imagine. That's not love. Like a child playing with toy people molded out of playdo, he has a plan for what's going to happen. Great, but that doesn't sound like love... Fine, but now this has turned into a different kind of a debate and you're still responding. I think it's fascinating--I'm just saying, you can quit adding that disclaimer to the end. We understand what you're saying.  |
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Post by sushiboat on Mar 28, 2006 0:41:05 GMT -5
The traditional Christian doctrine on heaven and hell is essentially Tony Soprano: Do what the Boss wants or you get whacked. Right and wrong have nothing to do with it.
People like the Universalists who have thought seriously about the implications of hell and tried to reconcile it with the love preached by Jesus concluded that no one will go to hell, that everyone will be saved. The rest worship a Loving Torturer. Could it explain GWB and Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo? Probably not, but the irony is there.
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Post by scottydstno on Mar 28, 2006 0:52:01 GMT -5
But this is exactly what I mean by "not understanding". In the Christian faith, a "good" person in God's eyes is a perfect person, which does not exist ... that is the whole point in loving Christ, to have our mistakes and sins washed away when we die, as if everything we do, think, and say in life was written on a file for example. Worshiping God, in the Christian faith, is to love Him and seek His "goodness". I know a lot of athiests that are much "better" people than most "Christians" I know. The thing is though, in the Christian faith, no one is perfect, so everyone sins, everyone does "good" and "bad" things, but the Christian faith says that when God created man he was intended to be perfect, but sin entered the world through his lack of responsibility and obediance to his Father (which all is highly symbolic so lets not take this to there or this will never end) so from then on no man is "good" in that since because no one is perfect. Yet, heaven is a place where only perfection can exist (trying to explain why, again, would only lead into getting into the Bible and a never-ending debate) so the Christian loves Christ so that their sins can be forgiven of them (it's a daily thing, not a one-time thing) and so that they can be re-united with God in the paradise that He is preparing for us.
What you don't understand is that a Christian isn't someone who goes around thinking to themselves "oh you're going to hell, but you're going to heaven, but no you arent" or even believing one way or the other. I believe (and hope) that I am going to heaven, but that is my own personal belief, what other people believe is none of my business and I am not to judge anyone nor am I to even think that any such individual will go to heaven or hell based on what they believe in. For all we know, all our ideas of a heaven (to those who believe in one) or a "good" person could all be meaning the same thing in essence, and we could all reach it. It is not for any man to say in my opinion.
That is what I mean by "not understanding". All those 'Christians' who do judge others are just as guilty themselves. I believe in what I believe in, and that is that. When I say that I believe that only those who accept Christ will enter into His kingdom, it is what I myself and other Christians follow, because the Bible is not a rule-book, it a book that Christians believe to be a book of truth and promise, more like a guide. We are not anyone to tell others who is "right" and "wrong". What I believe in is what Christians follow, but that does not mean that those who do not share the same faith are "wrong" for not doing so.
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Post by MrNice on Mar 28, 2006 0:55:41 GMT -5
scotty - once again you are wrong about people not understanding
they just don't agree - its different
can you understand that?
the bible, the words, can be interpreted in any way you wish
you found something in it that has helped you deal with your problems - good for you
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Post by scottydstno on Mar 28, 2006 1:00:26 GMT -5
The Angels existed before human, another "race" of life maybe, as some people think. Satan was an angel, but was angry at God for creating man, so he tried to rebel agains't God, so he was 'kicked out of heaven' and then sin entered the world through satan's temptations. God created satan, but satan's hate created hell.
God doesn't "allow" or "disallow" anything to happen without much prayer because he loves us all and gives us all our own choices, including whether we choose to accept Him or not.
What does a kid playing with playdo have anything to do with this? That's not what I mean by God having a plan for each person's life. So yes, you either did not understand what I meant by that, or you're just being a smartass.
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Post by scottydstno on Mar 28, 2006 1:01:07 GMT -5
Like I said, believing in it and understanding it have absolutly no connection with what I am talking about. If you're convinced otherwise, then I guess my point has been proven.
I'm not wasting my time here anymore. I beleive in what I believe in, if you have a problem with that, get over it.
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Post by MrNice on Mar 28, 2006 1:03:04 GMT -5
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Post by GreenFerret on Mar 28, 2006 1:05:14 GMT -5
scotty - once again you are wrong about people not understanding they just don't agree - its different can you understand that? the bible, the words, can be interpreted in any way you wish AMEN!  |
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Post by GreenFerret on Mar 28, 2006 1:07:02 GMT -5
I'm not wasting my time here anymore. I beleive in what I believe in, if you have a problem with that, get over it. Tsk, these things always end the same way.  |
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Post by MrNice on Mar 28, 2006 12:53:08 GMT -5
scotty, I understand that you are angry and irritated and are trying to piss me off, but just get over it
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Post by shypsychologyguy on Mar 28, 2006 13:26:57 GMT -5
wow ive never been the topic of such debate before.
the point is when someone becomes a christian old things are past away and you are a totally diferent person. your perception of life and your problems change and you have a renewing of the mind. some christian beliefs especially regarding faith would never make sense to someone who is not a christian and who does not have such a renewing of the mind.
honestly I think my faith is why Im happier and more successful than most of you people here. I say thius because i have not slipped into depression or ever thought of suicide. most of the time im happy and people look up to me as a strong , happy optimistic , person.
I dont always see myself the way others see me.
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Post by wagnerr on Mar 28, 2006 13:47:02 GMT -5
This is starting to get out of hand. I don't like to see anyone's beliefs questioned, be they Athiests, or Christians, or Buddhists. Come on guys, we are struggling to learn here in life. We are trying to figure out what the world is all about, and each of us comes at it from a different angle. Because of that, each of us throughout our lives must reach down and really really question what it means to human, and question ourselves. Self doubt is the key to knowledge and true understanding of one's self. We must always inquire ourselves as to what we are doing, and try to understand others as well. Finger pointing, empty critcisms, and blind acceptances are not the path to true understanding.  Let me quote a phrase from a Daoist sage. "The sage seeks freedom from desire, not grasping at ideas. He brings men back when they are lost, and helps them find the dao." This means that we should question ourselves, and our own beliefs, not others'. Our goal in life is find peace. |
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Post by Sweet Pea on Mar 28, 2006 15:46:40 GMT -5
I think my faith is why Im happier and more successful than most of you people here. i'm not criticizing anyone's faith, but i have to say...isn't it obvious to you yet that remarks like this one have an irritating effect on others? people who want to look for similarities between themselves and others rather than acting as a divisive influence can do so, regardless of their religious/spiritual beliefs. i think we would all benefit more on a board like this by stressing our commonalities and being supportive of each other. |
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Post by MrNice on Mar 28, 2006 16:00:38 GMT -5
if you seek freedom from desire then you are locking yourself into the 'desire to be free from desire'  |
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