To Call or Not to Call

[deadendphilosopher]

Dec 7, 2008 21:24:21 GMT -5 Farouche said:

Sweet Pea -------------
i think the equal rights approach only works when both people involved buy off on it.

Definitely true, and works both ways. If the girl expects equality and the guy wants to "wear the pants," she's going to be frustrated and it won't work. If the guy expects equality and the girl wants to take a submissive role, he's going to be frustrated, and that won't work, either.

I would be really careful about jumping to conclusions about a guy not "respecting" you in this day and age if he doesn't go the traditional route of asking your number. Many people in their twenties make a lot of girl and guy friends and keep things very casual until they decide to get serious with someone, such that I think it would seem quite weird to at least some guys to be expected to court and woo a girl the old-fashioned way. There were a few guys and girls at my college who did it like that, but my impression was that most would pretty much just hang out, flirting and enjoying each other's company until they decided they liked each other enough to try a relationship.

I'm with Skyhint--I don't see how it matters who calls who first, if there turns out to be something between you two. Personally I think it's cutting off your nose to spite your face not to contact a guy just because he didn't call you first. You don't have to act like an eager puppy, and calling him once isn't "pursuing" him; in my opinion it's just doing your part to secure potential happiness for yourself. You should be able to tell from his reaction to your call whether he's into you or not. If he wants to meet for lunch, ask him to call you back closer to the date to discuss plans, if you like. That'll give you a bit of a chance to find out if he was serious or just being vaguely friendly out of habit. As SP pointed out, all you really stand to lose is a bit of pride.

You don't want to end up calling him all the time, but he doesn't need to be calling you all the time, either--and a lot of guys nowadays may very well take it as disinterest on your part if you play that game. Maybe you'd only be happy with an old-fashioned guy, anyway, but if you're just concerned about respect specifically, there's nothing wrong with being the first to make the call, if you do want to talk to him. You should be able to figure out whether he respects you or not when you have more to go on.

Again, I don't see what this has to do with equality. I could not tolerate a relationship that is not equal, but there is a difference between equal and same. To me an equal relationship is one in which man and woman share selves authentically, support each other in areas that are important to each other, whatever these might be, have respect for each other, have equal input in decisions, and have roughly the same amount of influence on each other. An equal relationship would be one in which a woman's identity doesn't depend on her relationship to the man, and the man's doesn't depend on his position of perceived superiority over the woman. (Or vice versa). I don't see how having the man pursue violates inequality. Men and woman though the same in many ways, also approach life in different ways. As a result of these differences, my opinion is that when a man pursues he is more focused on pleasing his partner and also respects her more because he doesn't take her for granted. And I think a lot of women enjoy the chance to have someone else primarily concerned with her needs, especially since society teaches women to always be focusing on fulfilling the needs of others.

Thanks for pointing out that I should take the customs of modern day society into consideration. I guess you're right that it is uncommon to woo the old fashioned way. When we were dating before though, it wasn't just hanging out, there was also kissing involved. If it had been just hanging out, I would feel differently. I feel like I have more to loose than pride though, I guess because a part of me hopes that if I don't call, it leaves it open for him to try harder in the future if I see him again, but if I do call I will have placed myself in a role which I don't think is particularly helpful. But yeah, the chances of me seeing him again and him trying harder are probably pretty small. Most likely he won't bother to try. I guess part of the reason I am resisting calling him is that in observing the bad relationships of a couple close friends, I resolved that I would not put myself in the pursuer position. But maybe I could call him, and if he doesn't step in from there than I could forget it.

[pnoopiepnats]

Dec 8, 2008 10:41:24 GMT -5 deadendphilosopher said:

He was being excessively friendly, but his offer did feel lukewarm to me. I talked to a friend about the situation last night, and her first response was "If he is really interested wouldn't he want to initiate things?" She thought I should call him at a time when he isn't likely to answer his phone and leave a message and see if he calls back. I do know a reasonable hour when he is not likely to answer. Is this a stupid idea?

I should probably add that I don't have a cell phone so any call he makes to me goes to the family phone. He had an issue once or twice with getting a hold of me in the past. Could this might be a factor in why he didn't want to call?

It is true. If he was really interested he would have said can I call you sometime which would be the cue to give him your number. I have found that men generally do what they want and go after what they want.

[deadendphilosopher]

Dec 8, 2008 15:24:08 GMT -5 @pnoopiepnats said:

Dec 8, 2008 10:41:24 GMT -5 deadendphilosopher said:

He was being excessively friendly, but his offer did feel lukewarm to me. I talked to a friend about the situation last night, and her first response was "If he is really interested wouldn't he want to initiate things?" She thought I should call him at a time when he isn't likely to answer his phone and leave a message and see if he calls back. I do know a reasonable hour when he is not likely to answer. Is this a stupid idea?

I should probably add that I don't have a cell phone so any call he makes to me goes to the family phone. He had an issue once or twice with getting a hold of me in the past. Could this might be a factor in why he didn't want to call?

It is true. If he was really interested he would have said can I call you sometime which would be the cue to give him your number. I have found that men generally do what they want and go after what they want.

Yeah, I think you're right. Last night I suddenly lightened up about the whole thing - I don't know what I was so incredibly stressed out about. I think I might call him, not because of what might develop in the future (I'm not really expecting anything), but because I'm curious - about how he will react, and also because he intrigues me. Would this be an appropriate thing to do, or do you think it's expected that I won't call?

[rukryM]

It depends on what person the guy is, when talking about guys who start focusing inwards. And, when it is the other way around, all girls {as far as I see} get BORED when the guy does all the work. There have to be a balance. Whether the old standards are the best or not I don't know, but having only one side doing all the work will bore the other, no matter if it is the guy or the girl.

[Stranger]

I mightn't be all that representative of the "unfair" sex, lol, but I kinda find the idea of these indirect mind games rather off-putting.

I understand about not wanting to be too much of a pursuer, but I don't see how calling him once resigns you to that role indefinitely. How about calling him this time, and next time you meet up, ask him to initiate? I think it's good to give people the benefit of the doubt to begin with; just don't let things slip into a bad rut over time.

[Farouche]

DeadEndPhilosopher ---------------
Again, I don't see what this has to do with equality. I could not tolerate a relationship that is not equal, but there is a difference between equal and same. To me an equal relationship is one in which man and woman share selves authentically, support each other in areas that are important to each other, whatever these might be, have respect for each other, have equal input in decisions, and have roughly the same amount of influence on each other. An equal relationship would be one in which a woman's identity doesn't depend on her relationship to the man, and the man's doesn't depend on his position of perceived superiority over the woman. (Or vice versa). I don't see how having the man pursue violates inequality. Men and woman though the same in many ways, also approach life in different ways. As a result of these differences, my opinion is that when a man pursues he is more focused on pleasing his partner and also respects her more because he doesn't take her for granted. And I think a lot of women enjoy the chance to have someone else primarily concerned with her needs, especially since society teaches women to always be focusing on fulfilling the needs of others.

Most people enjoy being the object of someone’s undivided attention. It sounds like you’re saying that the appeal for a woman being the pursued lies in getting to be the official focus of attention, whereas being the pursuer is unappealing because it makes the man the focus of that attention. But a whole lot of modern advice for men advises guys to play it cool and let the woman prove herself to him, because otherwise they end up expending too much effort only to have the girl take him for granted and act self-centered and overly demanding. Familiar, right? And I understand your point about women being taught to put others first, but in my view, being assertive in a dating relationship can be a good way to put yourself first by going after what you want, rather than waiting for someone else's whim to give it to you.

Having a man exclusively pursue does seem to violate “equality,” but then some people don’t want equality, and not necessarily just when it comes to traditional roles, either. To a great extent, it’s just a personal preference. Most people want respect, though, no matter what role they choose, and I think what you’re talking about is more equality of respect and personhood, than equality of responsibility within a relationship.

DeadEndPhilosopher -----------
Thanks for pointing out that I should take the customs of modern day society into consideration. I guess you're right that it is uncommon to woo the old fashioned way. When we were dating before though, it wasn't just hanging out, there was also kissing involved. If it had been just hanging out, I would feel differently. I feel like I have more to loose than pride though, I guess because a part of me hopes that if I don't call, it leaves it open for him to try harder in the future if I see him again, but if I do call I will have placed myself in a role which I don't think is particularly helpful. But yeah, the chances of me seeing him again and him trying harder are probably pretty small. Most likely he won't bother to try. I guess part of the reason I am resisting calling him is that in observing the bad relationships of a couple close friends, I resolved that I would not put myself in the pursuer position. But maybe I could call him, and if he doesn't step in from there than I could forget it.

Well, I’m wondering about the circumstances of your friends that turned you off “pursuer” actions. To me this sounds like a bit of a leap of logic, like if the only thing your friends’ relationships had in common was that they kissed their boyfriends, so you decided never to kiss a guy, you know? A couple of relationships that happen to share a characteristic probably doesn't say anything all by itself.

One friend of mine is very aggressive about going after guys she likes, and her relationships are hit and miss—just like you’d expect when you're put yourself out there and risking rejection rather than waiting for a sure thing. I know someone else, a quite traditionally-minded guy, whose last relationship was with a girl who pursued him aggressively. He was an attentive boyfriend for all the short time they were together, and things ended between them only when she dumped him for someone else.

A cliche of depictions of traditional-style relationships (especially in 50s sitcoms, lol) is that the man turns selfish and inattentive after initially being very gentlemanly and romantic—which only goes to show that this scenario isn’t specifically related to relationships in which the woman takes a leading role at some point. And in fact I think the outcome of a relationship often has less to do with the way it starts than the way it continues. In a happy relationship, you’re both liable to end up “chasing” one another and demonstrating your affection. Unless you’re planning on waiting for a proposal before you let on you’re into him, what’s the harm in such a little gesture as a phone call upfront, eh?

[deadendphilosopher]

Dec 11, 2008 11:53:27 GMT -5 Stranger said:

I mightn't be all that representative of the "unfair" sex, lol, but I kinda find the idea of these indirect mind games rather off-putting.

I understand about not wanting to be too much of a pursuer, but I don't see how calling him once resigns you to that role indefinitely. How about calling him this time, and next time you meet up, ask him to initiate? I think it's good to give people the benefit of the doubt to begin with; just don't let things slip into a bad rut over time.

If it hadn't ended from his side previously, I wouldn't feel so hesitant to call, but since it did it just seems like desperate thing to do. I feel like my calling him would send the message, "It's ok you abruptly stopped contacting me, I'll still try to get with you anyway if you give me any encouragement." But you know what? I'm starting to think who cares. By caring so much what he thinks, I am letting him have a lot of power over me. I've realized that this anxiety I'm having about this whole thing isn't really about him so much - it's about my relationship with myself.

[deadendphilosopher]

Dec 11, 2008 19:18:03 GMT -5 Farouche said:

DeadEndPhilosopher ---------------
Again, I don't see what this has to do with equality. I could not tolerate a relationship that is not equal, but there is a difference between equal and same. To me an equal relationship is one in which man and woman share selves authentically, support each other in areas that are important to each other, whatever these might be, have respect for each other, have equal input in decisions, and have roughly the same amount of influence on each other. An equal relationship would be one in which a woman's identity doesn't depend on her relationship to the man, and the man's doesn't depend on his position of perceived superiority over the woman. (Or vice versa). I don't see how having the man pursue violates inequality. Men and woman though the same in many ways, also approach life in different ways. As a result of these differences, my opinion is that when a man pursues he is more focused on pleasing his partner and also respects her more because he doesn't take her for granted. And I think a lot of women enjoy the chance to have someone else primarily concerned with her needs, especially since society teaches women to always be focusing on fulfilling the needs of others.

Most people enjoy being the object of someone’s undivided attention. It sounds like you’re saying that the appeal for a woman being the pursued lies in getting to be the official focus of attention, whereas being the pursuer is unappealing because it makes the man the focus of that attention. But a whole lot of modern advice for men advises guys to play it cool and let the woman prove herself to him, because otherwise they end up expending too much effort only to have the girl take him for granted and act self-centered and overly demanding. Familiar, right? And I understand your point about women being taught to put others first, but in my view, being assertive in a dating relationship can be a good way to put yourself first by going after what you want, rather than waiting for someone else's whim to give it to you.

Having a man exclusively pursue does seem to violate “equality,” but then some people don’t want equality, and not necessarily just when it comes to traditional roles, either. To a great extent, it’s just a personal preference. Most people want respect, though, no matter what role they choose, and I think what you’re talking about is more equality of respect and personhood, than equality of responsibility within a relationship.

DeadEndPhilosopher -----------
Thanks for pointing out that I should take the customs of modern day society into consideration. I guess you're right that it is uncommon to woo the old fashioned way. When we were dating before though, it wasn't just hanging out, there was also kissing involved. If it had been just hanging out, I would feel differently. I feel like I have more to loose than pride though, I guess because a part of me hopes that if I don't call, it leaves it open for him to try harder in the future if I see him again, but if I do call I will have placed myself in a role which I don't think is particularly helpful. But yeah, the chances of me seeing him again and him trying harder are probably pretty small. Most likely he won't bother to try. I guess part of the reason I am resisting calling him is that in observing the bad relationships of a couple close friends, I resolved that I would not put myself in the pursuer position. But maybe I could call him, and if he doesn't step in from there than I could forget it.

Well, I’m wondering about the circumstances of your friends that turned you off “pursuer” actions. To me this sounds like a bit of a leap of logic, like if the only thing your friends’ relationships had in common was that they kissed their boyfriends, so you decided never to kiss a guy, you know? A couple of relationships that happen to share a characteristic probably doesn't say anything all by itself.

One friend of mine is very aggressive about going after guys she likes, and her relationships are hit and miss—just like you’d expect when you're put yourself out there and risking rejection rather than waiting for a sure thing. I know someone else, a quite traditionally-minded guy, whose last relationship was with a girl who pursued him aggressively. He was an attentive boyfriend for all the short time they were together, and things ended between them only when she dumped him for someone else.

A cliche of depictions of traditional-style relationships (especially in 50s sitcoms, lol) is that the man turns selfish and inattentive after initially being very gentlemanly and romantic—which only goes to show that this scenario isn’t specifically related to relationships in which the woman takes a leading role at some point. And in fact I think the outcome of a relationship often has less to do with the way it starts than the way it continues. In a happy relationship, you’re both liable to end up “chasing” one another and demonstrating your affection. Unless you’re planning on waiting for a proposal before you let on you’re into him, what’s the harm in such a little gesture as a phone call upfront, eh?

You make some good points. I guess having a man pursue could cause a woman to become self-centered and demanding, but from what I can tell, men are more likely to display this behavior. I think the reason for this is that woman are taught to think of others more than men are. You are right that going after what you want is a way to put yourself first, though - I just don't think it often works out well long term, though I'm sure it does sometimes.

No my observations about my friends are not really a leap in logic, I don't think. In one case the friend agreed that the issue was that she did all the pursuing - she asked him out, she called him most of the time, and eventually he didn't make any effort to contact her at all. He was happy to hang out with her if she asked, but he stopped asking her to hang out even when she stopped calling him. My other friend initiated her relationship too - she had to because her guy was shy and had never had a girlfriend. It started out ok, but it became apparent that she was on the bottom of his priority list even though he said he loved her (and I think he really believed he did). Things did improve some over time as she started to pull away from him some, but that dynamic was always there, and was a constant source of frustration, anger, and hurt to her. He was really surprised and upset when she finally broke up with him - but he realized what he had too late. In contrast I have a couple friends in relationships initiated by the guy, and in both cases neither seem to take the other for granted. I do think once one is in a relationship there has to be some "chasing" from both sides, but it seems like things work better when the man initiates.

However, you're right there is not much harm in calling this guy once, especially since I really don't see anything happening between us. I'll probably call him just for fun.

[Stranger]

Dec 12, 2008 11:58:27 GMT -5 deadendphilosopher said:

If it hadn't ended from his side previously, I wouldn't feel so hesitant to call, but since it did it just seems like desperate thing to do. I feel like my calling him would send the message, "It's ok you abruptly stopped contacting me, I'll still try to get with you anyway if you give me any encouragement." But you know what? I'm starting to think who cares. By caring so much what he thinks, I am letting him have a lot of power over me. I've realized that this anxiety I'm having about this whole thing isn't really about him so much - it's about my relationship with myself.

I see where you're coming from, but isn't the indirection just avoiding the issue? If you're interested in the person, but don't like the way he's treating you, isn't it better for both of you if you bring it up with him instead of trying to manipulate his behavior through actions that could easily be misinterpreted?

Dec 12, 2008 12:31:44 GMT -5 deadendphilosopher said:

No my observations about my friends are not really a leap in logic, I don't think. In one case the friend agreed that the issue was that she did all the pursuing - she asked him out, she called him most of the time, and eventually he didn't make any effort to contact her at all. He was happy to hang out with her if she asked, but he stopped asking her to hang out even when she stopped calling him. My other friend initiated her relationship too - she had to because her guy was shy and had never had a girlfriend. It started out ok, but it became apparent that she was on the bottom of his priority list even though he said he loved her (and I think he really believed he did). Things did improve some over time as she started to pull away from him some, but that dynamic was always there, and was a constant source of frustration, anger, and hurt to her. He was really surprised and upset when she finally broke up with him - but he realized what he had too late.

This also sounds to me like a matter of poor communication. If it was a "constant source of frustration, anger, and hurt," and he was "surprised" to hear it, then that to me suggests that she didn't speak up. Unfortunately, communication really seems to be key to any sort of relationship, and being shy is no free ticket. If you're in an intimate relationship, I think you pretty much have a responsibility to talk. (On the bright side, the more intimate you are, the easier talking will probably be.

[pnoopiepnats]

Dec 13, 2008 14:22:30 GMT -5 Stranger said:

I see where you're coming from, but isn't the indirection just avoiding the issue? If you're interested in the person, but don't like the way he's treating you, isn't it better for both of you if you bring it up with him instead of trying to manipulate his behavior through actions that could easily be misinterpreted?

I do see what you are getting at and that would be ideal. In her case, he pretty much stopped communication and disappeared which in itself is a very clear communication he didn't want to talk to her anymore. Sure she could try to call him up and ask what is going on but that would take honesty on his part which didn't seem to be happening.

This also sounds to me like a matter of poor communication. If it was a "constant source of frustration, anger, and hurt," and he was "surprised" to hear it, then that to me suggests that she didn't speak up. Unfortunately, communication really seems to be key to any sort of relationship, and being shy is no free ticket. If you're in an intimate relationship, I think you pretty much have a responsibility to talk. (On the bright side, the more intimate you are, the easier talking will probably be.

Yes communication would be ideal. You can't force the other person to communicate though. Yes you do have a responsibility to communicate when you are in an intimate relationship but as I said you can't force the other person to do it. Lots of people are passive aggressive. You ask someone to do something and they say they will and then they don't. They communicated they aren't going to do it. You are talking and realize they are listening. They made their point they don't really care what you have to say. Yeah it would be great if people were more open and honest in their communications but many people aren't.

[Farouche]

DeadEndPhilosopher -----------------
You make some good points. I guess having a man pursue could cause a woman to become self-centered and demanding, but from what I can tell, men are more likely to display this behavior. I think the reason for this is that woman are taught to think of others more than men are. You are right that going after what you want is a way to put yourself first, though - I just don't think it often works out well long term, though I'm sure it does sometimes.

I just haven't seen anything that would suggest that whether the guy or the girl makes the first move could determine the course of an entire relationship. In my own experience I can say that being assertive has certainly led me briefly down dead ends, but it's also brought me a whole lot of happiness that, due to circumstances, could very easily have passed me by otherwise. So, about what you'd expect to get out of a series of risk-taking ventures. And besides; if you’re a person who tends to put other people before yourself, this is still going to be a problem if your guy is initially the pursuer. The problem will just be deferred till the end of the initial honeymoon period.

DeadEndPhilosopher -----------------
No my observations about my friends are not really a leap in logic, I don't think. In one case the friend agreed that the issue was that she did all the pursuing - she asked him out, she called him most of the time, and eventually he didn't make any effort to contact her at all. He was happy to hang out with her if she asked, but he stopped asking her to hang out even when she stopped calling him. My other friend initiated her relationship too - she had to because her guy was shy and had never had a girlfriend. It started out ok, but it became apparent that she was on the bottom of his priority list even though he said he loved her (and I think he really believed he did). Things did improve some over time as she started to pull away from him some, but that dynamic was always there, and was a constant source of frustration, anger, and hurt to her. He was really surprised and upset when she finally broke up with him - but he realized what he had too late. In contrast I have a couple friends in relationships initiated by the guy, and in both cases neither seem to take the other for granted. I do think once one is in a relationship there has to be some "chasing" from both sides, but it seems like things work better when the man initiates.

The first friend sounds as though the only “wrong” thing she did was continue to pursue a guy who wasn’t into her to begin with, and the second friend sounds like she just expected more affection and attentiveness to be hiding under that shy exterior than there actually was. The first is something that can happen to anyone who takes the risk of taking the lead; the second is more a case of one person’s love making up for the other’s selfishness for just long enough to get them into a relationship.

The risk in doing all the pursuing is that its possible to end up for a while with someone who just likes the attention, whether the object of pursuit is a guy or a girl. But taking charge doesn’t make anyone selfish; it just allows a selfish or disinterested person to be drawn into a relationship by someone who’s willing to do all the hard work. Letting the guy do all the chasing has its own corollary: you can end up with someone who’s willing to do all the work due to the fact that he’s an overbearing, controlling person by nature, and there are lots of examples of women out there who would tell you that their mistake was to allow themselves to be led step by step into a relationship started on someone else’s terms. That isn’t to say that allowing a guy to pursue you will make him controlling, though it's just as plausible as the idea that being the pursuer will make a guy selfish. Either tactic, however, whether being purely the pursuer or purely the pursued, can select for and even encourage certain undesirable traits in the other person.

So again, I don’t think allowing the guy to do the pursuing actually has any real benefit in our modern age, unless of course it’s the idea of it that holds the appeal. Doing a bit of chasing doesn’t make your partner selfish, and in this day and age, passivity is just as likely to be construed as a lack of interest as a show of coy affection. But I don’t think the girl doing all the pursuing is a great thing, either; it seems to me that mutuality is always the key, at least to some degree.

Anyway, good to hear you're thinking about calling him, whatever the reason. Jessica Wabbit may be right that the guy stopped contacting you because he wasn't that interested, but then again he could have stepped back because he thought he liked you more than you did him. Or maybe he's only wanted to date very casually from the beginning, and only has a small inclination to continue that now, or maybe he was in fact just being polite. It's often hard to say. But if you want to talk to him again even if just to gauge his interest or out of curiosity, calling him seems like a fine plan. Good luck!

[Stranger]

Dec 13, 2008 15:02:20 GMT -5 @pnoopiepnats said:

I do see what you are getting at and that would be ideal. In her case, he pretty much stopped communication and disappeared which in itself is a very clear communication he didn't want to talk to her anymore. Sure she could try to call him up and ask what is going on but that would take honesty on his part which didn't seem to be happening.

Okay, but that's a different matter. If she thinks he's being dishonest, then I agree there's no point going any further. But if she's unsure (or prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt for now) then skirting around the issue just seems like a hassle for everyone. It was that indirectness I was having a dig at, that's all.

As for him cutting off contact, well I don't know the circumstances, but if this was the same guy from this thread, then he may have been a little questioning of her interest. I have no idea, and I'm not gonna jump to conclusions.

Dec 13, 2008 15:02:20 GMT -5 @pnoopiepnats said:

Yes communication would be ideal. You can't force the other person to communicate though. Yes you do have a responsibility to communicate when you are in an intimate relationship but as I said you can't force the other person to do it. Lots of people are passive aggressive. You ask someone to do something and they say they will and then they don't. They communicated they aren't going to do it. You are talking and realize they are listening. They made their point they don't really care what you have to say. Yeah it would be great if people were more open and honest in their communications but many people aren't.

I wasn't saying you have to force anyone else to communicate... I just meant you need to speak up about what you want before you can fault someone for not giving it to you. That doesn't mean you'll get it, but at least you'll avert the surprises, and stand a chance at avoiding the agony to begin with.

[deadendphilosopher]

Dec 13, 2008 14:22:30 GMT -5 Stranger said:

Dec 12, 2008 11:58:27 GMT -5 deadendphilosopher said:

If it hadn't ended from his side previously, I wouldn't feel so hesitant to call, but since it did it just seems like desperate thing to do. I feel like my calling him would send the message, "It's ok you abruptly stopped contacting me, I'll still try to get with you anyway if you give me any encouragement." But you know what? I'm starting to think who cares. By caring so much what he thinks, I am letting him have a lot of power over me. I've realized that this anxiety I'm having about this whole thing isn't really about him so much - it's about my relationship with myself.

I see where you're coming from, but isn't the indirection just avoiding the issue? If you're interested in the person, but don't like the way he's treating you, isn't it better for both of you if you bring it up with him instead of trying to manipulate his behavior through actions that could easily be misinterpreted?

Dec 12, 2008 12:31:44 GMT -5 deadendphilosopher said:

No my observations about my friends are not really a leap in logic, I don't think. In one case the friend agreed that the issue was that she did all the pursuing - she asked him out, she called him most of the time, and eventually he didn't make any effort to contact her at all. He was happy to hang out with her if she asked, but he stopped asking her to hang out even when she stopped calling him. My other friend initiated her relationship too - she had to because her guy was shy and had never had a girlfriend. It started out ok, but it became apparent that she was on the bottom of his priority list even though he said he loved her (and I think he really believed he did). Things did improve some over time as she started to pull away from him some, but that dynamic was always there, and was a constant source of frustration, anger, and hurt to her. He was really surprised and upset when she finally broke up with him - but he realized what he had too late.

This also sounds to me like a matter of poor communication. If it was a "constant source of frustration, anger, and hurt," and he was "surprised" to hear it, then that to me suggests that she didn't speak up. Unfortunately, communication really seems to be key to any sort of relationship, and being shy is no free ticket. If you're in an intimate relationship, I think you pretty much have a responsibility to talk. (On the bright side, the more intimate you are, the easier talking will probably be.

I don't necessarily think he did anything wrong by stopping contacting me - if he became disinterested that's just how it is - it's not really something I'd feel legitimate confronting him about. Not calling is not all about manipulating his behavior - I just wasn't sure if I wanted to put myself in that position. But I did anyway. I called him and got a machine. I left a message, but my intuition says he's not going to call back. A bit disappointing, but not a big surprise.

If there was poor communication in my friend's relationship, for the most part it wasn't from her side. She had many talks with him about how his behavior made her feel. Usually he would end up crying and apologizing after she refused to buy any excuses. The talks didn't work so well, but her backing off from him more did.

[deadendphilosopher]

Dec 13, 2008 17:21:32 GMT -5 Farouche said:

DeadEndPhilosopher -----------------
You make some good points. I guess having a man pursue could cause a woman to become self-centered and demanding, but from what I can tell, men are more likely to display this behavior. I think the reason for this is that woman are taught to think of others more than men are. You are right that going after what you want is a way to put yourself first, though - I just don't think it often works out well long term, though I'm sure it does sometimes.

I just haven't seen anything that would suggest that whether the guy or the girl makes the first move could determine the course of an entire relationship. In my own experience I can say that being assertive has certainly led me briefly down dead ends, but it's also brought me a whole lot of happiness that, due to circumstances, could very easily have passed me by otherwise. So, about what you'd expect to get out of a series of risk-taking ventures. And besides; if you’re a person who tends to put other people before yourself, this is still going to be a problem if your guy is initially the pursuer. The problem will just be deferred till the end of the initial honeymoon period.

DeadEndPhilosopher -----------------
No my observations about my friends are not really a leap in logic, I don't think. In one case the friend agreed that the issue was that she did all the pursuing - she asked him out, she called him most of the time, and eventually he didn't make any effort to contact her at all. He was happy to hang out with her if she asked, but he stopped asking her to hang out even when she stopped calling him. My other friend initiated her relationship too - she had to because her guy was shy and had never had a girlfriend. It started out ok, but it became apparent that she was on the bottom of his priority list even though he said he loved her (and I think he really believed he did). Things did improve some over time as she started to pull away from him some, but that dynamic was always there, and was a constant source of frustration, anger, and hurt to her. He was really surprised and upset when she finally broke up with him - but he realized what he had too late. In contrast I have a couple friends in relationships initiated by the guy, and in both cases neither seem to take the other for granted. I do think once one is in a relationship there has to be some "chasing" from both sides, but it seems like things work better when the man initiates.

The first friend sounds as though the only “wrong” thing she did was continue to pursue a guy who wasn’t into her to begin with, and the second friend sounds like she just expected more affection and attentiveness to be hiding under that shy exterior than there actually was. The first is something that can happen to anyone who takes the risk of taking the lead; the second is more a case of one person’s love making up for the other’s selfishness for just long enough to get them into a relationship.

The risk in doing all the pursuing is that its possible to end up for a while with someone who just likes the attention, whether the object of pursuit is a guy or a girl. But taking charge doesn’t make anyone selfish; it just allows a selfish or disinterested person to be drawn into a relationship by someone who’s willing to do all the hard work. Letting the guy do all the chasing has its own corollary: you can end up with someone who’s willing to do all the work due to the fact that he’s an overbearing, controlling person by nature, and there are lots of examples of women out there who would tell you that their mistake was to allow themselves to be led step by step into a relationship started on someone else’s terms. That isn’t to say that allowing a guy to pursue you will make him controlling, though it's just as plausible as the idea that being the pursuer will make a guy selfish. Either tactic, however, whether being purely the pursuer or purely the pursued, can select for and even encourage certain undesirable traits in the other person.

So again, I don’t think allowing the guy to do the pursuing actually has any real benefit in our modern age, unless of course it’s the idea of it that holds the appeal. Doing a bit of chasing doesn’t make your partner selfish, and in this day and age, passivity is just as likely to be construed as a lack of interest as a show of coy affection. But I don’t think the girl doing all the pursuing is a great thing, either; it seems to me that mutuality is always the key, at least to some degree.

Anyway, good to hear you're thinking about calling him, whatever the reason. Jessica Wabbit may be right that the guy stopped contacting you because he wasn't that interested, but then again he could have stepped back because he thought he liked you more than you did him. Or maybe he's only wanted to date very casually from the beginning, and only has a small inclination to continue that now, or maybe he was in fact just being polite. It's often hard to say. But if you want to talk to him again even if just to gauge his interest or out of curiosity, calling him seems like a fine plan. Good luck!

I don't think it's necessarily bad if the girl makes the very first move - she could make a move and then he could step in and start actively pursuing. But anyway we could debate this for ever. I'm of the opinion that things tend to work out better if the man is actively involved in pursing, because women seem to be more other centered and men seem to me more self centered (for that's what society expects of us). However I will admit that I honestly don't know if my opinion is true. Besides this one guy, I haven't really had dating experience. My opinion is based off observations of friend's relationships, and a book called Mars and Venus on a date, which made a lot of intuitive sense when I read it. Of course neither of these are very objective ways to gain knowledge (although there's no such thing as truly objective in the big picture). So maybe I'm wrong. I'll definitely keep your view on the matter in mind in my future observations and actions.

[deadendphilosopher]

I called and he called back and didn't leave a message. I don't have a cell phone so he doesn't know I have caller id. Farouche, and Stranger, even you would agree that it's not worth it to try calling again right?